Poll On Kerry's Insulting Comments - Go Vote

You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well.
If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.
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These are the exact words he used. Explain to me what requires an apology.
 
invention_45,

You obviously agree with Jon Carry, so that makes you just as bad as he is in his condescending, superior attitude over people that are actually his betters.

Regardless how Carry meant it, he has a history of insulting the troops that goes back to the 70s. So the worst will be believed of him every time.

Nowadays there's not a single troop on active duty that's not a volunteer, including my son and my son-in-law.

Both are better men than you, assuming you are a man.
 
With only minimal exceptions, all of the armed forces require applicants to have either a high school diploma or GED before they are accepted.
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That sentence says that you can get in without even a GED.
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I know. I wrote it. If I had meant to say that it was an absolutely non-waiverable requirement, I would not have said "with only minimal exceptions." It is a fact that not all applicants are required to possess proof of completion of secondary education. However, the fallacy shared by many in this country is that "the Army is always hiring," when in fact the physical, educational and psychological requirements are much more stringent than most private sector jobs. Comparing the rates of secondary and post-secondary education within the Armed Forces with that of the general populace shows that service members are more educated. Service members also show significantly higher education levels when compared with individuals in their specific age and income brackets. Lastly, most commissioned officers tend to hold degrees in applied, technical or scientific fields; there are a lot more Captains with business degrees than English degrees. Is it the case that liberal arts or general studies majors are more successful in the civilian world than, say, electrical engineers? If not, why aren't they "stuck in Iraq?"

You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well.
If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.
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These are the exact words he used. Explain to me what requires an apology.
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Because his choice of words makes clause B (you'll get stuck in Iraq) dependant upon failing to abide by clause A (working hard, etc.).
The implication is that the reverse is true as well: those who are "stuck in Iraq" are there because they did not make the most of it, did not study hard, did not do their homework and did not make an effort to be smart. He could easily have said "you'll get stuck in a dead-end job" or "you'll be non-competitive with your peers" or even "the option of volunteering for duty in Iraq might look more appealing." However, he did none of the above.

It should be easy to understand why a number of National Guardsman and Reservists that are "stuck in Iraq" because their units deployed might take offense. After all, many of them (especially in Civil Affairs, Medical, Engineeing and Legal units) are highly educated and successful in their civilian occupations. Furthermore, his specific choice of words implies that such duty is unrewarding and meaningless. "Stuck in Iraq" is far more denigrating than "sent to Iraq" or "end up in Iraq." Although polls indicate the general populace (most of whom have never been there) and a large number of experts (including many of dubious qualification) believe that absolutely nothing worthwhile is being accomplised in Iraq, polls of returning veterans are dramatically different. While they may not have relished their tour of duty, many see themselves as having served honorably and done their part to help the Iraqi people. The implication that they were merely "stuck" there betrays ignorance of their missions and accomplishments...and is offensive to those who served.

For comparison, let's slightly rephrase Kerry's statement, and pretend he was addressing the graduating class at Harvard Medical.
"You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well.
If you don't, you get stuck in the US Public Health Service."
Can you see how many concientious doctors working in inner city Atlanta might take offense? Can you see how General Practitioners working on Indian reservations might take offense?
 
I find it amusing that so much time and energy is being put into analyzing the comment of a man doomed to future irrelevancy, while things said by our current commander in chief with much less ambiguity are ignored.

:p
 
You obviously agree with Jon Carry, so that makes you just as bad as he is in his condescending, superior attitude over people that are actually his betters.
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Let's see how bad I am compared to my "betters". Are soldiers in Iraq using secure radios? Bet they are. Are they getting guidance from AWACS and like systems? Bet they are. Is the air they breathe being monitored by ACADA toxic chemical sniffers? Bet it is. Things I did over the last 20 or so years are keeping a lot of them alive. Those things happened because I heard "Carry"-like advice and took it to heart.

Regardless how Carry meant it, he has a history of insulting the troops that goes back to the 70s. So the worst will be believed of him every time.
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If you say so. I suspect that a little research would show he insulted policy more than troops.

Nowadays there's not a single troop on active duty that's not a volunteer, including my son and my son-in-law.

Both are better men than you, assuming you are a man.
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Well, OK, then. Ask them to send my designs back to me and fight without them.

------

If not, why aren't they "stuck in Iraq?"
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Maybe they had the good sense to figure out a way to educate themselves on their own dimes rather than make a deal with the military to help them do it.

Although polls indicate the general populace (most of whom have never been there) and a large number of experts (including many of dubious qualification) believe that absolutely nothing worthwhile is being accomplised in Iraq, polls of returning veterans are dramatically different. While they may not have relished their tour of duty, many see themselves as having served honorably and done their part to help the Iraqi people. The implication that they were merely "stuck" there betrays ignorance of their missions and accomplishments...and is offensive to those who served.
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Perhaps once you've been through a hard-to-relish tour and seen a lot of death and destruction that only a war can demonstrate, and been part of doing it, it gets difficult to call that activity dishonorable and still sleep at night.

"You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well.
If you don't, you get stuck in the US Public Health Service."
Can you see how many concientious doctors working in inner city Atlanta might take offense? Can you see how General Practitioners working on Indian reservations might take offense?
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Sure, I can see how they might take offense. That's what I said before, they can infer what they will. But the statement still goes. Fact is, the statement applied to ME. Daddy didn't put me through college. Nor did anybody else. I heard someone say something similar to what Kerry said and I took it to heart. Had I not done so, I'd probably take offense at such a statement as well. But that would not make it any less wise a piece of advice, and I most certainly could expect diddly if I demanded an apology.
 
Maybe they had the good sense to figure out a way to educate themselves on their own dimes rather than make a deal with the military to help them do it.
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Non sequiter. Such a statement about how someone pays for their education could equally apply to every undergraduate and graduate course of study, and does not change the fact that those with the most economically beneficial degrees are also the highest represented in the Armed Forces. Assuming they meet the physical and psychological requirements, almost any gradute of an accredited 4-year school may recieve a commission regardless of their undergraduate course of study; an English or drama major is every bit as qualified to become an O-1 as a physics or business major. While this may speak more towards cultural differences within those fields, or more towards the neccessity of more advanced degrees (and becoming trapped by academia) by the former, it is certainly not because the latter are less compensated in the American job market.

All officers are required to obtain a degree before they are commissioned, and many enlisted personnel (myself, for example) have several years of college and/or degrees before enlisting. While there are financial incentives for service (scholarships, loan repayment, tuition assistance, etc.) to blithely state that all "educated people" in the services must have indebted themselves in order to pursue their schooling, or that they are somehow less capable to provide for themselves on the economy, is farcical at best.

I heard someone say something similar to what Kerry said and I took it to heart. Had I not done so, I'd probably take offense at such a statement as well. But that would not make it any less wise a piece of advice, and I most certainly could expect diddly if I demanded an apology.
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The point is not whether or not you personally followed such advice or whether you would be offended if you had slacked off in school, it is that many people who did in fact follow similar advice have nonetheless served in Iraq. The advice (Clause A) is excellent, and if Kerry had left it at that, there would be no room for complaint. It was the gratuitous remark (Clause B) that is offensive to those who have served or are serving in Iraq, as it equates that service with the reciprocal of "doing well."

Study hard, get good grades, take an interest in something other than beer, and you might become more valuable in the defense of your country by sitting your ass in a laboratory than by hanging it out there to be shot at.

That is what Kerry was saying, and that's the way it is. It was an admonishment aimed at students. If enlisted men want to infer insult, let them.
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...and that's exactly the attitude that offends servicemembers. Part of the problem (so elequently summed up by you when flatly stating that the Navy couldn't touch what you earn as a contractor) is the idea that simple financial compensation is the measure of a person's success. It's the idea that "doing well" is incompatible with service in Iraq. It's the mentality that someone making a piece of equipment is inherently more valuable than the user of that equipment (conveniently ignoring the fact that the end user was tasked with the same missions before the equipment was ever developed...and must still face them out even when it is inoperative or otherwise unavailable). It is elitist and grates on the sensibilities of those who go into harm's way for a living.

Honestly...I don't expect you to truly understand how offensive it is any more than I would expect the average white male to understand how the "N-word" could offend people of color. Your experience does not appear to have given you the same values and frame of reference as military service members. There is nothing wrong with that in the least, and you are entitled to be baffled, but to make the blanket statement that there are no grounds for offense is simply incorrect.
 
"lift a finger" is to "war in Iraq" as "molehill" is to "mountain".
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And raping and plundering in your home, is a "molehill" to the "mountain" of tortured bodies attributable to Saddam Hussein or to OBL and his Talibanis.

Leave us not think too small... ;)
 
Idiot female should pick a better spot to voice her opinion, because a half a dozen soldiers at the gas station heard the commotion and quickly surrounded Ms Idiot and shouted her down. Glad I was not there, because I would be in jail right now.
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How highroad of you. :rolleyes:

Obviously you're a responsible person in control of your emotions who should have access to lethal weapons.
 
Glad I was not there, because I would be in jail right now.
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This was a "figure of speach"... it isn't something the cognizant mind is expected to take literally.
Heist
...things said by our current commander in chief with much less ambiguity are ignored.
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He may bumble his words, or stammer his thoughts, when speaking from a podium...but as far as I know... PRESIDENT Bush has not directly insulted anyone...

Senator Kerry, Senator Clinton, Minority Whip Pelosi, Senator Kennedy, Reverend Jesse Jackson and Reverend Al Sharpton, have done... on numerous "screeching" occasions.

These are not well-heeled people.
They're too arrogant for convention and tradition...
Hell, they don't even think they need to have good manners... :(
 
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How highroad of you.

Thank you, Heist. I take that as a compliment. My brothers and I put up with enough garbage from some of the "enlightened ones" back in the 70's. I'm not inclined to have my kids put up with the same crap. So far as what I might have done to said idiot, it might have been the tongue lashing of her life, and if you have a problem with that, tough. I figure that directing my thoughts at her would at least be in the right direction. Taking it out on the soldiers is wrong. Period. Gotta problem with the war, take it out on those who sent us there. Namely, the President who called it, and the Congress who gave him the authority.
 
I would hope that my skills at verbal scissoring would be good enough to achieve my goals without having to resort to anything criminal that would get me thrown in jail.
 
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