Police shooting in Wisconsin 4/22/2011
- Thread starter geetarman
- Start date
The two other things I thought of were if they thought this vehicle was connected to a drive-by shooting wouldn't they get more bacup - at least get another squad car out there for backup before pulling him over?
It didn't seem to me that I heard the BOOM of a shotgun. I would have thought that when you were going into a situation involving a possible shooter they would come out with the 12ga
It didn't seem to me that I heard the BOOM of a shotgun. I would have thought that when you were going into a situation involving a possible shooter they would come out with the 12ga
He stumbles somewhere around the 7-9th shot of return fire. I suspect he was injured at least once before he got back in his truck. What happened from that point forward probably can't be easily explained by trying to guess what a rational and uninjured person would have done.
There's some speculation that the shooter, Seth McCloskey, may have been the I-90 shooter.
http://www.wrex.com/Global/story.asp?S=14528265
There's some speculation that the shooter, Seth McCloskey, may have been the I-90 shooter.
http://www.wrex.com/Global/story.asp?S=14528265
There were 4 officers present for the shootout.
When I first read that the driver was a suspect in a drive-by, I thought it was gang related, or organized crime or something.
But this guy was just shooting into houses, just random. it's kind of a different meaning to "drive-by"
On the one hand I think hardened criminal engaging in 'business', but just shooting into homes randomly, I think mentally ill or on drugs or both.
But this guy was just shooting into houses, just random. it's kind of a different meaning to "drive-by"
On the one hand I think hardened criminal engaging in 'business', but just shooting into homes randomly, I think mentally ill or on drugs or both.
LockedBreech
New member
One of the comments in here said they should have been more sparing with shots fired. You are chasing a guy. You think maybe car chase, maybe just a DUI or something of the sort, and then a guy is attempting to murder you.
You won't be counting rounds. You won't be making clear strategic decisions. You'll be fighting for your life. Training helps a lot, but in certain situations human nature just takes over.
You won't be counting rounds. You won't be making clear strategic decisions. You'll be fighting for your life. Training helps a lot, but in certain situations human nature just takes over.
Cant agree with you Law Scholar
IMO this is what seperates professionals, from the every day Joe. The police are and should be professionals. Well trained, and disciplined. We have members who although they arent Police have trained on a professional level. I dont believe the police sprayed and prayed in this situation, but used the technique of cover by fire.
With none of us knowing the complete set of circumstances, we can only comment based on opinion, and our own experience, and training. It did seem like quite a few rounds fired by the police. But the firing seemed controlled, directed, and corrected. But thats just my opinion based on my own experience, and training.
Glenn D.
IMO this is what seperates professionals, from the every day Joe. The police are and should be professionals. Well trained, and disciplined. We have members who although they arent Police have trained on a professional level. I dont believe the police sprayed and prayed in this situation, but used the technique of cover by fire.
With none of us knowing the complete set of circumstances, we can only comment based on opinion, and our own experience, and training. It did seem like quite a few rounds fired by the police. But the firing seemed controlled, directed, and corrected. But thats just my opinion based on my own experience, and training.
Glenn D.
Law Scholar didn't say the police should have shot more sparingly - he's just commenting on that statement.
I think as soon as a perp opens fire the police should put as many rounds in him as quickly as possible. If he goes down and is incapacitated then fine, but I think if there are 4 police there and a guy fires on them - all 4 should return fire to try to put him down. If there are 6 police there - all six should return fire to put him down. if there are 8 police there then all eight should return fire, and if they had shotguns they should have been using those too.
I think as soon as a perp opens fire the police should put as many rounds in him as quickly as possible. If he goes down and is incapacitated then fine, but I think if there are 4 police there and a guy fires on them - all 4 should return fire to try to put him down. If there are 6 police there - all six should return fire to put him down. if there are 8 police there then all eight should return fire, and if they had shotguns they should have been using those too.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Wow Gleen Dee, you got a lot more out of the firing in that video that I did. They didn't spray and pray, I don't think either, but I also don't think they were engaged in "cover by fire" given that the suspect was not shooting at them when they engaged him, nor did he appear to be trying to shoot at them. Instead, it just appears that they were trying to unload as much as need on the suspect's location in the vehicle, only a lot of the shots were well outside of the suspect's location (high) and we can tell how many just out and out missed everything.
LockedBreech
New member
Glenn Dee, reread my post. We are in agreement. 
Double Naught Spy, we should consider that the police didn't know the engagement was over. For all they knew, his pistol ran out of ammo so he was going back to the truck for an AR, or was putting his car in gear to turn it around and ram officers.
Double Naught Spy, we should consider that the police didn't know the engagement was over. For all they knew, his pistol ran out of ammo so he was going back to the truck for an AR, or was putting his car in gear to turn it around and ram officers.
chadstrickland
New member
I am in complete agreement that the cops should be disciplined professionals..however even saying that y'all know there had to be some slight panic and stress involved...I know that I probably couldn't be thinking text books responses to that particular situation and if the area had been rural I would have said to heck with him..unload on him with everything you got..but since it was in such a crowded neighborhood I would have been a little more careful..you guys cannot tell me some of those shots didn't go over that truck..and would you stand by your post if some 5 year old girl got killed while playing in her room?? ...I don't mean to critic...but as I said before..luck had alot to do with what happened and how it ended
This guy may have been " loaded " because his first mistake was pulling in front of that car with the police behind him.
At any rate the gene pool has been cleaned by " natural selection ". I hope that he didn't have any offspring.
The cops shouldn't lose any sleep over this.
At any rate the gene pool has been cleaned by " natural selection ". I hope that he didn't have any offspring.
The cops shouldn't lose any sleep over this.
MMQB
I hope none of you will take umbrage at my remarks.
Unless and until you have been involved in an armed encounter you should refrain from negative comments concerning the conduct of Police Officers in a shooting.
Imagine that you answered a knock on your door tomorrow morning and a person asked you, "would you like to be an airline pilot"? And you say, yes, you always wanted to be one. Then they take you to the airport and put you in the left seat of a 737 and say, "there you go, guy." That isn't too far off track. That's pretty much what you get as a cop when they cover the subject of gunbattles. They can talk and talk and they can show you videos that illustrate the aftermath of shootings, both good and bad. But until you actually get into a gunfight no person alive can tell you how you will feel or act when it happens to you for the first time. How do you describe the sound of a close miss round and tell the Officer trainee that, "this means it's this far from you and you need to duck this way to avoid it or the other way if it sounds like this." You can tell an Officer trainee how it feels to be struck by a projectile fired from a gun...but how does that same trainee "KNOW" what it's like? You can tell them that, "this is what you do if you're shot". But they won't know. You put Cops on the street with a minimal of training and expect informed decisions. They are forced by exigencies to decide a rule of law in 20 seconds that lawyers will happily work for hours to prove them wrong.
Backstop? Absolutely! Unless... Most of the time the bad guy will determine where he makes his static point stand. Cops have to try to make the best of it and stay alive long enough to stop the maggot. Are they to give the suspect a "bye" if he stops in front of houses? OK. Say they do? How many people will climb the Officer's backs over allowing the suspect to "get away" and hurt someone else? I became a Cop in the south in 1971. Iretired because of a heart problem and went to work for the State Department of Safety as a civilian supervisor in Emergency Services and retired from there after a stroke in 2009.
I've been there... I will never try to second guess an Officer who uses deadly force, so If I don't then I believe you guys who have never been on the streets shouldn't either.
MMQB. Monday Morning Quarterbacking. See the "rule of law" remark above. If you folks really need to count rounds get some old reruns of "A-Team" and count the rounds down range from their Mini 14s. And NOBODY gets hit. Nobody dies! Nobody bleeds!
Like it has been said: "That's Nice but this is Life". Regards to all; Al
I hope none of you will take umbrage at my remarks.
Unless and until you have been involved in an armed encounter you should refrain from negative comments concerning the conduct of Police Officers in a shooting.
Imagine that you answered a knock on your door tomorrow morning and a person asked you, "would you like to be an airline pilot"? And you say, yes, you always wanted to be one. Then they take you to the airport and put you in the left seat of a 737 and say, "there you go, guy." That isn't too far off track. That's pretty much what you get as a cop when they cover the subject of gunbattles. They can talk and talk and they can show you videos that illustrate the aftermath of shootings, both good and bad. But until you actually get into a gunfight no person alive can tell you how you will feel or act when it happens to you for the first time. How do you describe the sound of a close miss round and tell the Officer trainee that, "this means it's this far from you and you need to duck this way to avoid it or the other way if it sounds like this." You can tell an Officer trainee how it feels to be struck by a projectile fired from a gun...but how does that same trainee "KNOW" what it's like? You can tell them that, "this is what you do if you're shot". But they won't know. You put Cops on the street with a minimal of training and expect informed decisions. They are forced by exigencies to decide a rule of law in 20 seconds that lawyers will happily work for hours to prove them wrong.
Backstop? Absolutely! Unless... Most of the time the bad guy will determine where he makes his static point stand. Cops have to try to make the best of it and stay alive long enough to stop the maggot. Are they to give the suspect a "bye" if he stops in front of houses? OK. Say they do? How many people will climb the Officer's backs over allowing the suspect to "get away" and hurt someone else? I became a Cop in the south in 1971. Iretired because of a heart problem and went to work for the State Department of Safety as a civilian supervisor in Emergency Services and retired from there after a stroke in 2009.
I've been there... I will never try to second guess an Officer who uses deadly force, so If I don't then I believe you guys who have never been on the streets shouldn't either.
MMQB. Monday Morning Quarterbacking. See the "rule of law" remark above. If you folks really need to count rounds get some old reruns of "A-Team" and count the rounds down range from their Mini 14s. And NOBODY gets hit. Nobody dies! Nobody bleeds!
Like it has been said: "That's Nice but this is Life". Regards to all; Al
chadstrickland
New member
As I have already stated before I have never been in a shoot out where bullets flew both ways..and I understand and agree with you..however my overall point was that the only reason this thing ended well ( well meaning no cops or innocent people got killed ) was dumb luck....and another thing...isn't this the purpose of tactics and training forum..I mean im not bad mouthing cops....but to just say that we shouldn't say anything when cops use deadly force other than yes those guys did everything perfectly...I understand that no decision in the field is perfect and that you have to do what seems best at the time and stick with it..and I also know that shoulda woulda coulda never did anything......except for give us training and how to learn from our mistakes...if nobody ever sat down and discussed what happened then nothing would ever change....im not no liberal loving panzy...just want to learn and see what could have been done differently...and I don't think it matters if it was hollow points or ball if it goes through a window or door....not trying to start some junk here..just trying to use this situation to learn somthing
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First- this perp wasn't a "professional criminal". Guns or no, these guys make
90% of crime money, and are involved in less than 3% of overall gun crime.
Second- Lucky cops! Perhaps it was windshield deflection, probably it was just
remarkably poor shooting on behalf of the BG, thank goodness they came off OK.
Third-This guy obviously wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. It's hard
to think like a deranged criminal, but jumping out of your only
transportation while it's still moving, and in gear? Not the height of good
judgment,to put it kindly.
Of course, if this guy had any brains, he would have hit what he was aiming
at, so we were lucky not to lose a couple LEOs.
90% of crime money, and are involved in less than 3% of overall gun crime.
Second- Lucky cops! Perhaps it was windshield deflection, probably it was just
remarkably poor shooting on behalf of the BG, thank goodness they came off OK.
Third-This guy obviously wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. It's hard
to think like a deranged criminal, but jumping out of your only
transportation while it's still moving, and in gear? Not the height of good
judgment,to put it kindly.
Of course, if this guy had any brains, he would have hit what he was aiming
at, so we were lucky not to lose a couple LEOs.
Double Naught Spy
New member
You know, I have never raced a train and tried to beat it at a track crossing, but I have no problem with evaluating what the driver did wrong. Whether or not a person has "been there" does not validate or invalidate their statements about knowing what is or is not correct. It may be helpful, or may introduce unnecessary bias.
However, if you stick by your comment that those of us who have never been involved in an armed encounter such as in the OP that we should refrain from negative comments, then by equal standard, none of us should engage in any positive comments either. If folks aren't qualified to make negative comments, then they sure as heck aren't qualified to make positive comments either, huh?
Uprangewilly
New member
Did you see that S-10 or whatever that black pick-up was at the intersection? Once he realized what was happening he got the heck out of dodge! Can't blame him. Jeez.
What was really odd is that the perp exited the truck and then took a firing range stance in the open to attack the police officers. He appears to have spent a lot of time at the range practicing but only in the static, stand up and shoot paper manner.
Apparently he was used to doing drive by shootings at unprepared and surprised civilians and found his techniques does not work against a trained officer of the law.
Fortunately the police appear to have been better trained to use cover. I was also surprised how fast the police were able to return fire in volume. They were certainly prepared mentally for him to attack, good awareness and planning ahead.
Kudos to the police for having plenty of officers on the scene to handle the suspect, and being able to respond swiftly and accurately.
Apparently he was used to doing drive by shootings at unprepared and surprised civilians and found his techniques does not work against a trained officer of the law.
Fortunately the police appear to have been better trained to use cover. I was also surprised how fast the police were able to return fire in volume. They were certainly prepared mentally for him to attack, good awareness and planning ahead.
Kudos to the police for having plenty of officers on the scene to handle the suspect, and being able to respond swiftly and accurately.