Pocket .380 advice

[A pause for the COZ]

I think the fact that Ruger is starting to discount their LCP.380's kind of makes the choice easy right now. Have seen them as low as $199.
At that price I may get a 2nd one for me and give the wife the old one. Buds has them for $229 right now.

 

[jackmoser65]

While expansion isn't as good as a +P 9mm for most offerings, both the Hornady and Speer HPs we've used work well. I've got the dead raccoons and possums to prove it. Six inches of penetration, through and through in fact, with 50 cent piece exit holes.

Thanks for what is probably the most useful information in this nonsense-riddled thread.

I don't care for the .380. If you have a 9mm, use it. A pocket .380 doesn't have the "runway" for any bullet use except FMJ. If you buy a .380, don't waste your money on "miraculously expanding bullets", it just isn't in the cards.

The only .380 that could possibly "get my vote" is the Browning Black Label .380... with a 4.25" barrel! This is the only way you can get enough velocity from the cartridge to make it a true penetrator.

Hmmm, yet my penetration testing in ballistic gel shows that the 90gr Hydra Shock penetrates exactly the same and yields exactly the same textbook penetration, whether fired from a Beretta 84 or an LCP.

I wouldn't use FMJ for a carry load in ANYTHING.

Don't get hung up on stopping power; it doesn't exist.

Really??? Then what purpose does it serve to shoot an attacker, if not to "stop" them? How does one quantify the difference between the .25ACP and the .45ACP? Seems to me that people mistake "knockdown power", which is quite mythical, to "stopping power". Which would be characterized as the quantifiable ability of a defensive load to stop an attacker.

 

[gglass]

Jackmoser65: Really??? Then what purpose does it serve to shoot an attacker, if not to "stop" them? How does one quantify the difference between the .25ACP and the .45ACP? Seems to me that people mistake "knockdown power", which is quite mythical, to "stopping power". Which would be characterized as the quantifiable ability of a defensive load to stop an attacker.

Here is a good read if you want to get a handle on real-world stats on stopping power, based on a 10-year study.

Spoiler Alert! Handguns perform about the same now matter what caliber is used, and only rifles had an appreciable increase in stopping power. Who knew?

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

I do like the author's summary near the bottom of the article where he says, "I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.".

 

[GoldieMI]

I EDC a P238 Equinox in a DeSantis in front right pocket.
flush fit mag with CorBon 90g PowerBall
fits better and conceals with ease compared to most
all steel and not a blowback, so eats up the recoil
easy to point and shoot, and not just at 15' feet...I regularly practice with mine and can hit out to 25 yards without an issue.

for me, it was the the one that fit right and shot right...so if it was a bit more, It is the daily carry for me...has been for 4 years now.
no issues and I put a 100 rounds a month through her most months to keep current on my skill level.

 

[jackmoser65]

Handguns perform about the same now matter what caliber is used, and only rifles had an appreciable increase in stopping power. Who knew?

It is comical beyond measure that in any discussion about firearms for hunting, there is a huge amount of debate over what works better. What caliber/bullet/bullet weight/velocity, etc., etc., ad nauseum. But when we have a discussion about self defense guns and loads it's, oh well, "they're all the same". Of course, the hunting discussion is based on actual experience. The self defense discussion is based on theory, conjecture and uninformed opinion. Big disconnect between the world of killing critters and theorizing about shooting people.

In my opinion, this is due to a couple of factors. First and foremost, the above mentioned disconnect between killers and theorists. Secondly, that some people cannot bring themselves to admit that they made a compromise when they decided to carry a .380 or 9mm, instead of something bigger and more effective. In the real world of killing living creatures, there's a bit, measurable freaking difference between a 9mm and a .45.

 

[gglass]

Jackmoser65,

I'm not sure if I'm tracking with you Jack. If you read the link in my previous post, I think you would see that there is not a whole lot of stock that one could put into the .45 over 9mm debate. Even your statement is based on theory and not a real-world study, other than hunting, which I assume you are speaking of rifle caliber hunting.

I for one will not lose a minute of sleep if I compromise with the choice of a 9mm over a 45ACP, or even a .380ACP for that matter.

 

[jackmoser65]

I lend more credibility to my own experience than goofy studies, which almost always seem to be heavily flawed and have a pre-determined agenda. I know there's a difference, if the study shows there is none, it is flawed.

Even your statement is based on theory and not a real-world study, other than hunting, which I assume you are speaking of rifle caliber hunting.

No, it is NOT based on theory or rifle hunting.

I for one will not lose a minute of sleep if I compromise with the choice of a 9mm over a 45ACP, or even a .380ACP for that matter.

I don't lose any sleep either but I also acknowledge and accept the compromise.

 

[adamBomb]

I really like the glock 42 and sig 238, however for pocket carry I think they are too big. I currently have a glock 26 and carry iwb with jeans and some shorts just fine. But I want a pocket pistol for days I cant carry iwb. I know they suck to shoot. they really do. I dont even like shoot subcompact pistols let alone a mouse gun, but I also dont want to leave the house without a gun.

I am in this same debate and 3 I am considering are the SW bodyguard, the keltec p3at, and ruger. I am looking for a gun that will feel fine when I wear gym shorts. I like the features of the bodyguard. I love restrike capability and the fact that it stays open on last round fired. However, the ruger and keltec are smaller and overall known to be more reliable. I am probably splitting hairs over this. I will have one by the end of march when it starts getting warmer.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

JackMoser 65-

Carrying a gun for self defense has absolutely nothing to do with hunting.
And caliber has darned little to do with "stopping" some one.
In hunting, the object is to kill something. Self defense has nothing to do with killing. If you can't discern the difference, you really need to reassess some things.

 

[jackmoser65]

If you can't discern the difference, you really need to reassess some things.

Oh please, save the socially acceptable BS. Inflicting a wound on a 200lb human being with a handgun is no different from doing the same to a 200lb critter, with regards to terminal ballistics. The goal being to do enough vital tissue damage to put them down as quickly as possible. The fact that we want the deer to die and only want to "stop" the human is irrelevant. The only significant difference is that we have to make considerable compromises for the sake of concealed carry and there are no psychological factors in wounding animals.

If you don't see the connection, maybe YOU need to reassess.

And caliber has darned little to do with "stopping" some one.

Sorry sir but four decades of handgun hunting with every kind of handgun imaginable tells me otherwise. Handgun cartridges (not handguns chambered for rifle cartridges) do not produce enough velocity to depend on it. They're solely dependent on diameter and mass. Bigger bullets make bigger holes. Heavier bullets make deeper holes. The bigger and deeper the hole is, the more damage is done and the quicker the beast runs out of fight. People are no different. As JD Jones once said, extensive killing is the best teacher.

 

[mrray13]

jackmoser....go read about Trp. Coates, Ofr, Lim and Ofr. Reston.

Trp. Coates killed by a .22lr while putting 5 .38 caliber slugs into the bg.

Ofr. Lim shot point blank with a .357, removing bottom of her heart, and a tennis ball sized exit, got up, and killed her attacker with a cns shot. Lived due to life saving medical, but carried the fight to the bg.

Ofr. Reston shot in face with .45acp. Shattered jaw, carried fight to bg and won.

Self defense shooting isn't like hunting. In most hunting scenarios, you shoot, you wait. You have the ability to watch, track and locate. You get to wait for the shot to be fatal. Not necessarily so in person vs person situations. And there are many, many more documented cases where the bigger bullet didn't always win.

So while handgun hunting will give you an idea on how a particular bullet will work, it doesn't guarantee that big, bad hunting bullet will drop an attacker in his/her tracks. Or keep them from shooting back.

On that note, I have a TCP I pocket carry, when I don't owb one of my fullsize guns. I don't feel undergunned with it, and compared to my previous p3at, it's way more refined. The trigger pull is long, but smooth, and not too heavy. I like having a slide lock, and last shot hold open. IMO, it's a great value for the money, I have $150 in mine, that has been far more reliable, 100% thus far, then my p3at ever was, with multiple ftf, fte right out of the box. I just have to do my part and put them where they count.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Nothing I said has anything to do with being socially acceptable.

All of you people who equate "bleeding out" with stopping someone are deluding yourselves. Maybe in a long term shootout situation bleed out could come into play.
It takes quite a while (in relative terms) for bleed out to occur.
If pulling a gun doesn't diffuse a situation, or shooting someone doesn't psychologically stop them or stop them with pain, the ONLY sure, quick, immediate, right friggin' now thing that WILL work is a central nervous system shot.
Unlike hunting, it doesn't matter if they die or stop in a minute or two-in a SD situation, you want, need them to stop RIGHT NOW-IMMEDIATELY.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Back to the original question.
Glock 42 - How is this an improvement over the Kahr PM9? It isn't much/any smaller and it's going from 9mm to 380. Don't see this as logical.
S&W Bodyguard - I love the M&P series of pistols. I wanted to love the bodyguard. But I just wasn't able to. The biggest reason was that crappy trigger.
Keltec - From my personal experience and from that of others, I'm not going to trust my life to something that says Keltec on it (or Taurus for that matter). Yes, I'm biased. Go ahead and hate me for it.
Kahr CM/PM9 - It's small enough to be a pocket gun. But due to it's shape, it tends to catch upon the draw (for me anyway).
The LCP - I find it pleasant to shoot (not everyone does). It fits in most pockets and draws easily. I can shoot 2" groups all day long at 10 yards with it. That's plenty accurate enough for a carry piece. And it's cheap.


YMMV, but my recommendation would be the LCP.

As for 380 vs 9. Just about everything is a trade off in the world of CCWs. We give up one thing to get another. We just have to weigh what is worth the cost. If I were in an actual gun fight, I'd rather have my 300 Blackout pistol that holds 30 rounds and can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. But carrying that baby as my EDC is more that I'm up for. So, I pack a LCP knowing nothing is perfect. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Cheapshooter]

Well said Jayhawkhuntclub.
I can't even bigin to understand why Glock chose to make a 9MM sized gun for 380. Just doesn't make sense when there are other appropriate for pocket carry, smaller, 380 pistols on the market.

 

[adamBomb]

I can't even bigin to understand why Glock chose to make a 9MM sized gun for 380. Just doesn't make sense when there are other appropriate for pocket carry, smaller, 380 pistols on the market.

If you shoot it and then shoot the lcp/keltec/bodyguard, you will see why. The glock 42 can be shot all day. Its comfortable and hitting a target is pretty easy due to that - and I think that is what they were going for (im guessing). The g42 is probably a better around carry gun for someone that thinks the g43 sized 9mm is too snappy and also cant shoot or hates the mouse guns for that same reason. As a pocket pistol, the g42 is too big but I dont think glock tried to make a pocket pistol. My sister just got a g42 because the same sized 9mm were too much for her. She could control the 380. And there is no way she could of went with a mousegun either.

 

[Cheapshooter]

If you shoot it and then shoot the lcp/keltec/bodyguard, you will see why. The glock 42 can be shot all day.

I have, a friend bought one soon after they came out. We both took turns doing a 150-200 round "shakedown". I noticed little if any difference in shooting "comfort".
I also wasn't any more accurate with the Glock than my Elsie Pea.
Practical experience with both is what makes me wonder so much why Glock made the G42 so big.

 

[jackmoser65]

Self defense shooting isn't like hunting.

You guys are focused on the wrong aspects. I'm talking about terminal ballistics and you guys are talking about tactics. I'll let you and Bill get back to theorizing.

 

[shepsan]

I too wanted to decrease the weight of my carry gun as the weight my Glock 27 loaded with ten rounds was fatiguing me at the end of the day. After researching 9mm and .380 caliber smaller pistols, I concluded that a Glock 42 in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster best met my needs.

Last week I bought a G42. This is my initial opinion about it:

After picking up my new Glock 42 from the gun shop, I took it home; field stripped it, cleaned and then lubricated it. I reassembled the pistol and kept the slide locked open over night. I also loaded the four magazines I had for it to help set the springs.

The following day I went to the range. The ammunition I shot was a varied selection:
Federal Champion 95gr FMJ
Fiocchi 2-F380AP gr95 FMJ
Magtech 380A 95gr FMJ
Winchester Target 95gr FMJ
Black Hills 380N1 90gr JHP
Fiocchi Extrema 90gr XTPJHP
Sig Sauer Sig V Crown 218884 90gr JHP

With limited experience handling small pistols, it took me a full 6-round magazine to maintain a firm grip of the G42. During shooting that first magazine my lack of firm hands on this lightweight pistol resulted in a few limp wrist malfunctions. Once I got the hang of grip control, no further malfunctions occurred.

The G42 handled all of the various brands and bullet types quite well. I was surprised to find that the Sig Sauer JHP was the smoothest loading, firing and ejecting rounds. It also had the lowest amount of muzzle flash.

I shot 36 rounds each of the FMJ ammo and 12 rounds each of the JHP ammo. After shooting 180 total rounds, all without gloves, my hands had enough and I stopped my first range session with the Glock 42. This will not happen again as the G42 is not a target pistol and the large number of rounds I shot was simply to test the pistol with various types of ammunition. In future times at the range, I will shoot the G42 to retain my handling of the gun and to enhance its reliability as a result of truly breaking it in.

The Glock 42l fits my hands well, has far less recoil than the .40 pistols I am accustomed to handling, is quite accurate at defensive distances and easily conceals in a pocket holster. It is an excellent gun and I think more than adequate to carry as a sole means of protection.

The controversy about calibers and stopping power of a given round of ammunition is not of consequence to me. Nevertheless, I am with those who believe that placement is the most important factor is stopping an attacker. I also think that today’s .380 ammunition is on par with what 9mm was a few years ago. Of course .380 does not have the stopping power of .40 or .45 caliber. However, I accept its value as a good defense load.

My opinion of the Glock 42 after this first range session is that it is an outstanding small pistol. I intend to carry it each day as my primary protection. Whether I will load it with ball or hollow point will be determined by the way the pistols handles ammunition during my further practice sessions.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Jackmoser65-
If I "theorize" I state that is what I'm doing.
I personally know a man who was shot in the chest with a 12 ga. shotgun at a range of about 8 feet. I also know the man who shot him. After taking a load of #8 shot to the right lung, he ran 35 yards before he passed out. He's alive today, as far as I know. If a 12 ga didn't "stop" him, a .45 in the same spot wouldn't have either.

"Terminal ballistics" is a very inexact science-at best educated guesses.

What I know to be absolute fact is that a CNS shot will "stop" someone regardless of a pistol's caliber. Anything less might not.

Handgun hunting objectives hardly relate to self defense. I also know hunters who swear they saw a deer get "knocked down" or "blown backwards" by a rifle shot. It's physically impossible, but they still believe it.

 

[Cheapshooter]

Bill, don't you know you will knock a man off his feet by just hitting him in the pinky finger with a "45".
Actually heard a "professional" behind the counter at a Bass Pro tell a customer that!