Pocket .380 advice

Some just missed the fact that 380 ammo today is much improved over what it was twenty or so years ago! Better bullet designs, more efficient powders, and lots of research in producing effective ammo for the very popular mousegun rounds.
And that IS the way it is.:D
 
Regarding the penetrator comment, I don't think I would want to go on the record about the ability to penetrate a person. I have my handguns around so that I can stop any threat to me or my family. If that stopping includes the need to penetrate - then, so be it. But, the primary reason is to stop the threat - and hopefully that means the bad guy runs out the door unharmed. Just my $.02 ...

It's a matter of knowing how a handgun works.

Most DGUs don't involve shooting. Brandishing the gun is usually enough to produce the desired result -- a stop to the grievous imminent threat. This is a psychological stop.

Most rounds fired don't hit the intended target. It makes sense that some misses will produce a psychological stop.

The typical hit is more likely to produce a psychological stop than a physiological stop, based on the known poor accuracy that is on display in the average gunfight.

A psychological stop is as good physiological stop, but in the case where the bad guy is determined, adrenaline-infused, psychotic, or drug-addled, a physiological stop may be necessary. If your carry system is not capable of producing a physiological stop, that system is suboptimal at best.

A system capable of producing a physiological stop is one that:
- allows for adequate penetration to reach highly vascularized vital organs, and
- can deliver the adequately penetrating projectiles accurately (this is more about the shooter than the gun for typical defensive handgun shooting distances).

In addition, the bigger the hole the better (more potential for vital tissue disruption, and the more disruption the quicker the target bleeds out and stops), and the more holes the better. Bigger holes are made by using wider bullets or expanding bullets. More holes are possible with a higher capacity sidearm. Wider bullets means less capacity, and care must be taken to ensure that reliable expansion is not achieved at the cost of reducing penetration to an inadequate degree.

Most people incorrectly conclude that accuracy is the most important element of a defensive handgun system (shooter, sidearm, and cartridge). However, consider a perfectly accurate Nerf gun -- it can never produce a physiological stop. On the other hand, consider a tyro shooter that has difficulty hitting a barn door -- given a gun loaded with adequately penetrating cartridges, this shooter can produce a physiological stop if he's lucky. Thus, penetration is the most important criterion in selecting and conditioning your system.

A winner wins because he does not prepare to prevail in just the average encounter. He prepares for a worse-case encounter. That means preparing to produce physiological stops.

On average:
- Most people will never be threatened with grievous harm; thus, the average person has no need to carry a sidearm.
- Most DGUs will be won simply by brandishing one's sidearm; thus, the average carrier can get by with an Airsoft pistol or an unloaded pistol.
- Most shootings likely produce psychologic, not physiological, stops; thus, the average carrier can get by using ineffective frangible (poorly penetrating) ammunition.

But, if you've opted to carry, it makes sense to carry something that can prevail in a reasonable worse-case encounter where a physiological stop is required. This is fundamental risk management.
 
I love the .380 round, and have a bunch of different ones. All have their pros and cons. But very few have stated anything about any vintage pistols besides the PPK-series. I'd opt to go with an Astra Constable, or if you prefer a double-stack magazine, then a CZ-83. Both can be had and are available and are reliable handguns. The CZ can double as a club if needed, as they were made stout like T-34 tanks!
 
The only .380 that could possibly "get my vote" is the Browning Black Label .380... with a 4.25" barrel! This is the only way you can get enough velocity from the cartridge to make it a true penetrator.

...and that's just the way it is.

Except that there is abundant empirical evidence to the contrary. Even a short-barreled pocket pistol can deliver standard pressure FMJs that will penetrate to IWBA and FBI criteria. ShootingTheBull410 demonstrates, using scientific terminal ballistics testing, that one can find a few .380 JHPs that will deliver adequate penetration out of a 2.8-in barrel:

https://youtu.be/GNtPHYwcDts.
 
Limnophile-
The ONLY sure, immediate physiological stop is a central nervous system shot. Relying on blood loss is certainly not immediate. It can take 1-2 minutes for blood loss to incapacitate at best.
Someone can do an awful lot of damage to you in one minute!
 
Limnophile - point well taken and good analysis! That said, you've got way, way too much time on your hands!! ... ;) The only thing I can add is a wee bit of geezer wisdom: have a dog, keep your doors (car and home) locked, don't go out at night, and don't visit the wrong side of the tracks. I have been around since the early 50's and this has worked for me - even with seven trips to the sandbox (but, quick to qualify - I was a contractor - but I got outside the wire many, many times)...
 
Stay with a 9mm and forget the 380

The 380 is better than not being armed, but ends up at about 1/2 the energy of a 9mm........

If you HAVE to pocket carry, why not a 38 snub? Much more powerful than a 380........ AND..... draws much faster from a pocket
 
I carry both the Glock 42 and Sig 238; for me, the Sig just wins on 'pointability' and feel.
My Wife just bought a Sig238. Nice little gun. At 5 yds she grouped 5 of 7 in the 1.5" bulls eye, on her second mag. And she is by no means a shooter. Maybe 100 rounds in her life, with any guns.
 
If you HAVE to pocket carry, why not a 38 snub?

Because they are far FAR bulkier than a small .380. If you compare the .38 Snub to a PPK or Bersa Thunder, then sure they are in the same league. But compare the size to a P3AT, LCP, or P238, and the J-frame starts looking awful big.
Also, spare mags lie flat in a pants pocket, even in blue jeans. Speed loaders are bulbous and uncomfortable affairs that almost require a jacket pocket to carry comfortably.
 
I will not likely be sold on both penetration and expansion. It defies the basic laws of physics. The data from what takes place on the street contraindicates what isolated labaratory data "illustrates".

Reality is what counts. In the case of the .380, it's penetration tha counts and that's really all that can can be relied on from the cartridge.
 
CaptainO, one CAN have improvements in ammunition performance over time though.

There was a time when 200gr and 220gr .30-06 sporting ammo was widely used on game larger than deer. Why? Because bullets were more fragile and weight was needed to break bones and punch deep. Now a good 180gr is the standard elk load.

There was a time when the Aught-six was the deer rifle that reigned supreme, and only an idiot would use a .243, let alone a .22-250 or .223.
But fast forward 50 years and I find myself in the minority if I say "Use more gun". Why is that? Better bullets of course.

The .357 was an over penetration nightmare until the Hi-Vel and even better bullets came along.

The 9mm had a TERRIBLE reputation until projectile technology caught up. Even then it still fell short of the .45, and police were wooed by the .40, leaving the 9mm by the wayside....until the state of the art advanced yet again.

From the Johnson Hi-Vel to today we have KNOWN beyond a doubt that the threshold of expansion is 1000fps....but now we have .38 snubbie ammo that mushrooms quite well. Granted it is all 125-158 grain, and so with out penetrate the .380, but UNDER penetration was never the .380's problem.

Even the legendary .45ACP didn't fare well with ball ammo, if one cares for statistics over anecdote.

The problem with the .380 is, and has always been, a nearly non-existent wound channel. But now we are starting to see .380 loads that excel the FBI's standards for penetration, and ALSO leave a nasty cavity at right about the 3"-6" mark...or right where the recipient's heart or lung might be. All of this with enough penetration to crack the spine!

Is it the hammer of Thor? The Wind of the God's? No, of course not, it's a 380...but it IS an improvement, and far from the ".22Fat" it used to be.

Come to tink of it, your own father's Japanese sniper (GREAT story BTW! I love that stuff) took 5 or 6 cast bullets of similar weight and style to .380 Ball ammo from your dad's revolver, and then as you put it "Stiffened up and rolled away". I cannot help but think that a half-dozen 90gr XTP .380s might have had a more dramatic effect. It certainly wouldn't have had LESS effect, and I am certain his life would have been saved...even from a sub-3" barrel.

Now weather such an auto would have been reliable in the jungle... It's probably good that he had the revolver!
 
Reality is what counts.
And in reality, NO handgun round is a proven, consistant man stopper.
As mentioned numerious times, the "poor performance" of the 380acp round is based on decades old technology.

If you HAVE to pocket carry, why not a 38 snub?
I have both, and there is no way that my LCR is as small, compact, less bulky, or easier to draw than my LCP.
 
Another vote for Bodyguard .380. I like mine much more than the Ruger LCP and especially more so than the P3AT. Can't say much else about other pocket .380s as I haven't had much experience with them. The P238 seems like it's well built but it's a little too small for me and I just don't like single action in a gun of that size.
 
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S&W's .380 Bodyguard is a great pocket gun. Both my wife and DIL have them and I find that those ladies carry them when their normal carry piece, a S&W 637, stays home.

As to reliability, both have been 100% with FMJ as you'd expect, but also with every HP we've tried: Hornady Critical Defense, Speer Gold Dot, and my own hand loads with Montana Golds HP. The round count between them now is roughly 600.

While expansion isn't as good as a +P 9mm for most offerings, both the Hornady and Speer HPs we've used work well. I've got the dead raccoons and possums to prove it. Six inches of penetration, through and through in fact, with 50 cent piece exit holes.

Best Regards Rod
 
I've had good personal experience with my Taurus TCP and a Sig P238.

When I bought my TCP the trigger on the LCPs sucked, I've heard they have improved though. As far as shoot ability the P238 wins every time. But, it is significantly more heavy.

I don't pocket carry much anymore though, too hard to get it out while seated.
 
I have a Sig P938 and it's a great gun. It shoots well, it hides on my belt under an untucked shirt or a hoodie. IMHO, it's not a "pocket gun"; neither is its little brother, the .380 P238. Both are heavier & thicker than I prefer.

I also have the M&P Bodyguard, which is a great pocket gun. It's lighter & thinner. The sights are not as good as the Sigs, but they are much better than what I've seen on the LCP or the RM380. I dug a bottle of gloss white Testor's model paint out of a box in my basement and painted my Bodyguard's sights; it makes a huge difference for old eyes like mine.

I'm not crazy about the Bodyguard's trigger: it's too long & stiff for my taste, and it affects the accuracy. I try to keep in mind that it's not a target pistol. It is designed for personal defense at closer distances, and I think it does a great job for the dollar.
 

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For Cheapshooter.

First off, thanks for the response.

Its great to share opinions. (Mine personal opinion is worth at
least a penny...... maybe less :) )


A couple of thoughts

1) I truly wanted to make pocket carry a part of CC solution. I carried a few small 9's, and after practice and thinking about it went away from pocket carry completely.

My main problem is the pocket draw in normal situations.

If you are sitting. (Like in a car) How fast can you honestly get into a
pocket and draw any weapon from a pocket in a seated position? -
Its slow, and maybe impossible

If your hand were to be injured, how would you draw that pocketed weapon from the weak side?

If somebody jumped you from behind........ and the fight is on the ground, and you are using your hands and elbows as points of stability....... How are you going to get to the weapon?

Practice the Tueller drill. (7 Yards...... someone is coming at you with a knife)

In pocket grab is slower than IWB..... by a long shot

Many people wouldnt think about CCWing a weapon that misfired 5 in 100 shots. But....... draw cold, and urgently from your pocket, ....... I bet you dont cleanly draw 100% of the time..... think stressful situation

Its not the wild west, by any means, but sometimes speed might be the needed action.

An revolver tends to slide out of a pocket better than a semi auto......



To me....... I see many people getting micro guns, and thats their perogative

They want small to stuff it into a pocket.


To me.... a 9mm (I carry a 40) is plenty of gun, and the DOUBLE energy from the latest 9mm over the latest 380 energy levels shouldnt be ignored.

There is no man-stopper rounds...... but if bullets may be coming back at me, I would like the other guy to be finished much earlier
 
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