Pledge of Allegiance...
- Thread starter Cowled_Wolfe
- Start date
Jammer Six
New member
You need to meet a higher level of people.
MicroBalrog
New member
You're not REQUIRED to say the pledge.
But I am going to think differently of you if you don't. That's what freedom is all about.
How about the fact that I viewed it as an unnecessary ritual to be performed by schoolchildren and would rather spend my time finishing up homework or whatever else i was already doing during the annoucements?
I wasn't making a political statement at 12 when I stopped saying the pledge. I just saw no reason to say it. Your comment is akin to one saying "I have yet to meet one intelligent person who can give any reason for not singing the national anthem at the dinner table."
I don't have to have a reason NOT to do something...that's ridiculous. The lack of a reason to actually do it is as valid as having a specific reason not to. Once in a while I'd still get up and say it if I felt like it. I also said the pledge during scout meetings because it was required and because it was a specific part of the organization's rituals. A public school, on the other hand, should have no rituals that would imply to children that the school supports any particular diety.
I didn't say the pledge 'cause I didn't feel like it. No political statement or hatred of America. Now if you're simply going to call me unintelligent for doing so, go right ahead. But I'd rather have an actual thoughtful reply.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
What good is a compulsory pledge anyway?
If you got captured in Iraq, and your captors promised to release you if you swore fealty to Allah, and you do so out of self-preservation...does that oath have any binding effect on you?
And I have yet to meet anyone with a good understanding of the Constitution who can give any reason why they ought to have the right to make other people's children recite any sort of oath, religious content or no. (And the word you're attempting to employ is "intelligent".)
If you got captured in Iraq, and your captors promised to release you if you swore fealty to Allah, and you do so out of self-preservation...does that oath have any binding effect on you?
And I have yet to meet anyone with a good understanding of the Constitution who can give any reason why they ought to have the right to make other people's children recite any sort of oath, religious content or no. (And the word you're attempting to employ is "intelligent".)
MicroBalrog
New member
Marko, the question is not whether the Oath should be compulsory. The question is what one's opinion on the Oath says about you.
Also, the pledge CAN be compulsory in a private school.
How about "I hve the right to decide the content of education, since I pay for it?"
Also, the pledge CAN be compulsory in a private school.
How about "I hve the right to decide the content of education, since I pay for it?"
Hugh Damright
New member
Primer, please give me a break and help me out with your vastly superior intelligence. Am I mistaken that the Pledge was created as reconstruction type propaganda, that it began in a childs magazine, and was designed to encourage children to think of the US as being indivisible i.e. a State rather than a Union of States? And if I am mistaken, then how did the Pledge originate?
Also, with your vastly superior intellect, maybe you could explain how it is that the US is indivisible. Wouldn't that make the US a State, and isn't "The United States" a funny name for a State? And what do those stripes and stars on the US flag represent?
The way I was thinking, with my humble inferior-to-you mental abilities, is that the US was originally divisible by thirteen, and that is why those thirteen blaring red and white stripes are staring you down when you take your mindless Pledge, as are those fifty Stars, which represent that the US is now divisible by fifty. In fact, I'm quite confident about this, and I am perfectly confident of my intelligence.
Also, with your vastly superior intellect, maybe you could explain how it is that the US is indivisible. Wouldn't that make the US a State, and isn't "The United States" a funny name for a State? And what do those stripes and stars on the US flag represent?
The way I was thinking, with my humble inferior-to-you mental abilities, is that the US was originally divisible by thirteen, and that is why those thirteen blaring red and white stripes are staring you down when you take your mindless Pledge, as are those fifty Stars, which represent that the US is now divisible by fifty. In fact, I'm quite confident about this, and I am perfectly confident of my intelligence.
Would make absolutely perfect sense if you were the only one paying for that education. But unfortunately the fact that 30 students have to sit in the same class and learn the same material is what prompted this entire debacle. If you hire a private tutor to teach your kid one on one, you can pretty much have that tutor tell your kid that when the sun sets in Arizona it burns everything up and that's why the area is so desolate.
MicroBalrog
New member
I referred to private schooling.
In public schools, currently courts believe the pledge can't be made compulsory, but it wasn't always the case.
In public schools, currently courts believe the pledge can't be made compulsory, but it wasn't always the case.
That's not what freedom is about. That's what blind nationalism is about.
If you talk to someone who refuses to say the pledge and you find out that they really hate this country, what it stands for, and the Constitution, then I'd agree that they should be ostracized. Making that determination solely because they refuse to say the pledge is not wise, because you will peg a lot of people wrong.
I think differently about people who make such quick and shallow judgements of others.
MicroBalrog
New member
Tyme, you may note I didn't not say I would think negatively of you. Just differently.
The nature of the difference would be defined by the reason for one's refusal.
The nature of the difference would be defined by the reason for one's refusal.
If you don't treat a non-pledger differently until you find out why they don't say the pledge, then you can't really say that refusal to recite the pledge will cause you to think differently about them.
I wonder why you'd make such a big deal over someone refusing to recite the pledge if you don't use that, and that alone, as a reason to treat them differently.
I get the same vibe from your comments that I generally get from "flag code" proponents, and from all the other people who elevate certain symbols to the level of deities.
I wonder why you'd make such a big deal over someone refusing to recite the pledge if you don't use that, and that alone, as a reason to treat them differently.
I get the same vibe from your comments that I generally get from "flag code" proponents, and from all the other people who elevate certain symbols to the level of deities.
MicroBalrog
New member
My first reaction to a non-pledger would probably be "Eh. I wonder...", which will persist until I get better information.
And I am not making a 'big deal' about it. I am politely debating it [or trying to politely debate it] on an Internet forum.
And I am not making a 'big deal' about it. I am politely debating it [or trying to politely debate it] on an Internet forum.
Ben Swenson
New member
The Pledge is simply recited by our children long before they understand it. As spoken by most students, it has no real meaning beyond a nationalistic "Oooh, American flag" response.
For the most part, your kids (and you, when you were that age) simply chant it without considering the words or meanings of the words. Have you looked at what the Pledge says?
By the way, for those of you who make the distinction between a government and a country, what does "[...] and to the Republic for which it stands [...]" refer to?
I've got no problem with people who want to say the pledge. I'm not entirely comfortable personally with swearing fealty to a symbol (even such a fine symbol as the American flag) or a human government. Any symbol or human government strikes me as a shaky thing to pledge feudal loyalty to.
For the most part, your kids (and you, when you were that age) simply chant it without considering the words or meanings of the words. Have you looked at what the Pledge says?
By the way, for those of you who make the distinction between a government and a country, what does "[...] and to the Republic for which it stands [...]" refer to?
I've got no problem with people who want to say the pledge. I'm not entirely comfortable personally with swearing fealty to a symbol (even such a fine symbol as the American flag) or a human government. Any symbol or human government strikes me as a shaky thing to pledge feudal loyalty to.
The Pledge.....
I was brought up saying it since the first day of public school. Even during the Vietnam War, we said the pledge. A lot of other folks were protesting everything and anything that wasn't the days- in cool thing. Traditional values in my family tree haven't shed many leaves of difference on this issue either. Maybe the fact that Mom came to the US as a 12 year old post war German made her love this country for what it was to someone in need of a good new start. Dad's side on the other hand was American for many years before the great wars. We even said Grace at the family table before we ate. Yes, back in those days family meals at night were normal and looked at as the place we could reflect back on our day. I have to admit the Good Ole Days are gone and it sounds like a lot of American's could care less.
I think this young American student and his ability to articulate his feeling about the Pledge are super. I could bet he is a good young man that has some dreams and goals. I would put my paycheck on the fact he goes and does what he wants in his life. That my friends is what the American Dream is to me. I hope my 3 children grow into the similar shoes this young American is in. It has come to the point in time that a person can stand up and be proud of what he or she is and have deaf ears to the socialist minded that seem to think the small number of them, should change the rest of our minds.......... I would like to bring attention to the Mickey Mouse picture and sticker of years gone by.... It was a happy mouse with his middle finger in the upward position................. that is my salute to those of you that hate those of us that say the pledge and stand proud and tall ......and mean what we say and pledge....
No need to flame me............. it just proves my point that much more......
Yep, you have the right to do just about anything you wish......... Some point in life you may have to explain to your kids or grandkids why you don't Pledge an allegiance to the land of the free, home of the brave......but you don't think any of that stuff is real either right?
I was brought up saying it since the first day of public school. Even during the Vietnam War, we said the pledge. A lot of other folks were protesting everything and anything that wasn't the days- in cool thing. Traditional values in my family tree haven't shed many leaves of difference on this issue either. Maybe the fact that Mom came to the US as a 12 year old post war German made her love this country for what it was to someone in need of a good new start. Dad's side on the other hand was American for many years before the great wars. We even said Grace at the family table before we ate. Yes, back in those days family meals at night were normal and looked at as the place we could reflect back on our day. I have to admit the Good Ole Days are gone and it sounds like a lot of American's could care less.
I think this young American student and his ability to articulate his feeling about the Pledge are super. I could bet he is a good young man that has some dreams and goals. I would put my paycheck on the fact he goes and does what he wants in his life. That my friends is what the American Dream is to me. I hope my 3 children grow into the similar shoes this young American is in. It has come to the point in time that a person can stand up and be proud of what he or she is and have deaf ears to the socialist minded that seem to think the small number of them, should change the rest of our minds.......... I would like to bring attention to the Mickey Mouse picture and sticker of years gone by.... It was a happy mouse with his middle finger in the upward position................. that is my salute to those of you that hate those of us that say the pledge and stand proud and tall ......and mean what we say and pledge....
No need to flame me............. it just proves my point that much more......
Yep, you have the right to do just about anything you wish......... Some point in life you may have to explain to your kids or grandkids why you don't Pledge an allegiance to the land of the free, home of the brave......but you don't think any of that stuff is real either right?
Has anyone said they hate everyone who recites the Pledge?
I don't care if you sing a Christian hymn while those around you say the pledge (or refuse to say the pledge). I don't think differently about anyone who says the pledge until I find out if they support this country's government unconditionally -- even when the government does something morally wrong.
If that's not the case, I have to wonder what they're pledging allegiance to. The government doesn't have the resources to keep track of who says the pledge. Your neighbor probably isn't present in situations where you say the pledge (they're fairly uncommon outside of secondary school). So who are you really saying the pledge for? Yourself? If you need to convince yourself you're patriotic, isn't that a problem?
The Pledge is a tool that uses emotion, rather than reason, to build nationalistic pride. It is potentially dangerous. Not necessarily bad... just dangerous. Just like government, and just like guns.
I won't instantly rebuke somebody for refusing the pledge. There are a few good reasons. Religion is a good reason. Some people, Jehovah's Witnesses for example, won't recite the pledge because they view it as worship of an earthly gov't over god.
There are people who refuse the pledge because they don't agree with everything our government does. I don't see this a a good reason. If this is your country, and you're loyal to your country, pledge allegiance to it.
I don't agree to the comments made about Kennedy's line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." I don't see this as labelling every American as a servant to the government. Kennedy was telling young people to have a sense of civic duty or civic responsibility. Too many people sit around demanding things from the U.S. gov't that we all have to pay for, and do nothing for their fellow man. Welfare-type programs have taken that away from us.
my $.02 worth
There are people who refuse the pledge because they don't agree with everything our government does. I don't see this a a good reason. If this is your country, and you're loyal to your country, pledge allegiance to it.
I don't agree to the comments made about Kennedy's line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." I don't see this as labelling every American as a servant to the government. Kennedy was telling young people to have a sense of civic duty or civic responsibility. Too many people sit around demanding things from the U.S. gov't that we all have to pay for, and do nothing for their fellow man. Welfare-type programs have taken that away from us.
my $.02 worth
Ben Swenson
New member
1. Pledging allegiance to a symbol or government is not the same as pledging allegiance to a country.
2. Reciting the Pledge does not make you loyal.
3. Refraining from saying the Pledge does not make you disloyal.
4. Actions speak far louder than mindless recitations.
More, I don't know that "allegiance" is something a free person should aspire to. The word itself is rooted in the concept of a vassal/liege lord relationship. Hardly seems supporting of the nation's underlying values.