Pledge of Allegiance...

lol how did you possibly turn this into a gay thing?

I like the country, just not the people running it. I'll be as patriotic as I choose to be and while you can feel free to tell people to get out as much as you want they all have the choice to be where they want to be and believe what they want to believe. No one's getting deported for not standing up during the pledge. Compulsory patriotism stands against the very freedoms that "the republic for which it stands" is supposed to be based on.
 
how about a comment from one who has not ever recited the Pledge?

i openly admit i am not patriotic. does that make me a bad person? does it indicate i am not a loyal person? without knowing my character, you can't answer those questions, can you? therefore, if any of you think ill of me because i announce on an anonymous message board that i choose not to be patriotic, you are making an ignorant decision. but then we get into the greater discussion of 'do i care what others think about me?'

what i do have is a great deal of respect for this country that has fought tooth and nail throughout the last few hundred years to ensure that civil rights are honored (some more than others, and some taking longer to get there than others as well). i also respect those who have made personal sacrifices for this country and for my rights.
you will never find me disrespecting the symbols of this country or the people who have fought to defend it.
 
Kind of gives a whole new meaning to "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country".
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I always did find fault with that statement.
It puts the cart in front of the horse.

This country -- any government -- is not founded based on the statist concept that WE exist to serve the STATE. It's the other way around. The government SHOULD be doing for us.

Kennedy's idiotic statement alleges that we are supposed to be servants of the state, and not the other way around. It sickens me.

-blackmind
 
Its not about making freinds its about if you dont like my country and refuse to be patriotic then get the hell out!!! The same go"s for being queer i have the right to be aganst it and fight it as much as i wish as long as i stay within the written law.I have the right to be proud of america and try to sway people in the same direction and im tired of little piss ants going on and on about tearing down their rights to be against the nation they live in and being gay.The same nation many have died for to protect to keep their stinking asse's free and jesus died on the cross to protect from sin (such as being gay)...and thats all i'll say about that ..sorry i blew up but thats how i feel.
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YO, Cletus, chill out!

Do you really advocate that anyone who doesn't like this country just the way it is should just be forced to abandon it, to "get the hell out," as you say?

For what? So that you can stay on in a country that is so "free" that it forces anyone who is dissatisfied with it to leave? That's real, um, "free." :rolleyes:

But I guess that to bible-thumpers who hate gays in spite of Jesus' teachings to love all of God's creations and to forgive because judgment is God's purview alone... it's perfectly alright to condemn, and to say "get the hell out" to anyone who opens his mouth with even a legitimate complaint.

-blackmind
 
When I was in HS I never recited the pledge. I don't want to participate in something that is merely a waste of my time. School is for learning, not a place for repetitive time wasting every morning. One can have respect for their country and not participate in the pledge.

The bottom line for me is that paid administrative teaching time should not be wasted on things not directly related to their subject matter. Wasting 5 minutes of class time a day on worthless announcements which ammount to nothing more then sarcastic jokes by the student announcers followed by the pledge is a complete waste of time.

If they changed the pledge to one a week, or maybe once a month I would definitely have no problem with it. After daily repetition it begins to lose all meaning and the students lose all respect for it. Familiarity breeds contempt.

School is a place where teachers are supposed to teach kids. Professing undying love for our country is something the kids can do on their own time at home, or even during lunch or break times. To take up paid class time every morning only serves to increase contempt for the pledge within the student population and causes ill feelings towards America in general.

I find it hard to believe some of the comments made so far. They seem to forget what our country is founded off of. Just because you enjoy the pledge doesn't mean one who doesn't is in some way a bad person, or should leave our country. If you justify forcing others into your views, how can you chastise someone else when their views prompt them into trying to take your guns away?

Otherwise, I think Blackmind has summed it up pretty well. I have found that his posts are probably the most grounded in common sence and lack the double standard which many here seem to display. Thank you for your well spoken posts.
 
I always did find fault with that statement.
It puts the cart in front of the horse.

This country -- any government -- is not founded based on the statist concept that WE exist to serve the STATE. It's the other way around. The government SHOULD be doing for us.

Kennedy's idiotic statement alleges that we are supposed to be servants of the state, and not the other way around. It sickens me.

-blackmind
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You are confusing "Country" with "Government". The 2 are not synonamous. I would do a lot for my country that I won't do for my government. Being patriotic goes beyond even the office of the President of the United States.
 
agree with post

could probably start a new thread, my gripe is a grown man cannot remove his hat during National Anthem or Pledge of Allegience. To me it is absolutely disrespectful!!!!!
 
Again, I just cannot understand the preoccupation (obsession?) with removal of the hat to show respect during the national anthem.

If someone stands, and faces the flag, I see that as all the respect I would require of the guy. It's in his heart and his mind -- not on his head. :rolleyes:


If you had said you detested people remaining seated and continuing their conversations or gulping their beer or shoveling nachos into their faces, then yeah, they're exhibiting a lack of respect and respect to our nation. But come on -- the hat?

-blackmind
 
I feel alone, I for one have always said the pledge and always will. I was raised to show respect for people and country. Your pledging your alligence to the flag of the USA, the greatest country in the world. Our forefathers have fought and died under that flag, many in my family have done the same and I will always be proud of them. My children know enough to take their hat off, face the flag and show respect, I would have it no other way. I may be a little older then most here. I'm 47 and raised with a VFW dad but one thing I learned in life early is it's not always about you, there are bigger things out there then you. People today in this PC world seem to forget that or never had it to start with, and I actually feel sorry for them and our country.
P.S. --- we also take our hat off when we sit at the kitchen table to eat, I'm not really sure why. I just know we had to or else mom would do it for us and that wasn't fun it actually hurt.

kenny b
 
P.S. --- we also take our hat off when we sit at the kitchen table to eat, I'm not really sure why. I just know we had to or else mom would do it for us and that wasn't fun it actually hurt.
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Lol! Moms, ya gotta love 'em! :D
 
You know I have found that most people like some of the ones here who bitch and moan about how the US has done them wrong and they will never take an oath of allegiance, never have any positive suggestion on how to improve anything. Not to mention have never spent one day outside of the US and see for themselves how other people live. The same ignorant people say the US is creating this global empire for its own purposes. Please tell me where this US global empire is at. I have been to Afghanistan and Iraq. I have talked with the native people there. And here’s the shocker. They love us and are thankful that we are freeing them from evil, from dictators, from oppression. Real oppression, like having your tongue torn from your mouth or you and your family being tortured to death for speaking out against the ruling government. (oppression is not having to pay taxes or cry about the government not catering to your every desire like Ceol Mhor is whining about). These are the type of people who have never had to fight for their own freedom or the freedoms of others. They just sit on their lazy asses and let others, like myself, fight for them so they can complain about their inconveniences and how horrible the state of the country is and offer nothing to improve their situation. These people are the sad ones who will never be happy with any type of government. They desire a system that will meet their every need and whim without having to contribute anything back. If you don’t love your country (note that I said "country" not the ones in power, that is different issue all together) and you don’t want to take allegiance to it, that’s fine. You have a right to. YOU ALSO HAVE A RIGHT TO LEAVE AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. But we all know you people that are so "devistated" over this "horrible country" won’t leave. You lack the courage to go elsewhere because you know you will find out what it really is to not be free. I have yet to meet one intelligent person who can give any reason for saying, "I won’t take the pledge of allegiance". Simply saying I have the right not to, as if we are supposed to applaud you for recognizing one of your rights, is painfully ignorant. A country whose people do not support, love, and defend it, will in time collapse, because it ceases to be a country. I am done with this thread. Cowled Wolfe, I admire your convictions. Don’t let anyone ever change you. You dedication to your country and high sense of standards place you far above your peers. It is an honor to be fighting for people like you. Thank you.
 
The Pledge of Allegiance doesn't make sense without a commitment to be fundamentally supportive of the country's leadership. Criticism has its place. Irrational hatred does not. The Pledge requires that one believe their glass is at least half full.
 
"The Pledge requires that one believe their glass is at least half full."

The key point here is every one in America has a glass, unlike other country's. The amount in that glass depends on the individual, although today we all start with a half glass and thats still not enough for some.

kenny b
 
"P.S. --- we also take our hat off when we sit at the kitchen table to eat, I'm not really sure why. I just know we had to or else mom would do it for us and that wasn't fun it actually hurt."

That's because your mom knew that if, when you grew up, you went around wearing your hat at other people's tables, they would think you're a clod. It's her job to teach you about things like that.

As for removing your hat during the national anthem at a ball game (or whatever) it's just a symbolic gesture, widely interpreted as a measure of respect. Nothing more or less. But if you don't remove your hat, don't be surprised if people think you're a clod.

Tim
 
I have yet to meet one intelligent person who can give any reason for saying, "I won’t take the pledge of allegiance".
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I consider myself to be an intelligent person, and I can give you a reason why I am not fond of the Pledge. The Pledge, like a lot of things folks consider sacred, is yankee propaganda. It is propaganda. It was created to foster the idea that the US is not a Union but a Nation, and that there is no right to secession but rather the US is "indivisible". It's a big stinking lie. To say that States have no right to secede is to spit on the Declaration of Independence whereby each State declared its right to secede and seceded.

I have feelings of patriotism. I believe in free government. I believe in the US Constitution. I most certainly do NOT believe in a bunch of yankees taking over the US and telling us to pledge that the US is "indivisible". You may as well ask me to put on a blue coat and sing "I am a yankee doodle dandy".

Now, if the Pledge said something like "and to the Republics for which it stands, fifty States, united under the Constitution", then that would fit the US Constitution and my feelings of patriotism.

My allegiance is to Virginia. That is my Country. The US is a Union, like the UN, and I do not think it's so intelligent to pledge allegiance to Unions.
 
Primer,

1) I make no claim that there's any other place with more freedom than the US. We're the healthiest patient in the cancer ward.

2) I whine about government not catering to my every desire? Ha! I have only one request for government - that it leave me alone. I don't want it maintaining my roads, paying for my healthcare, providing for my retirement, regulate my commerce, deliver my mail, or anything else.

3) An empire needn't be grossly malevolent to still be an empire. Many of Great Britain's colonies were also quite happy with their occupiers, but that didn't nullify the British empire.
 
WOW, I am so glad I decided to check this thred again and see the responses I got. I sincerely hope everyone got as much amusement from Hugh's and Ceol's post as I did. One of you is stuck in the Civil War era and thinks the pledge is "Yankee propaganda" and the other regards the whole world as a "cancer ward" and apparently wants to live completely cut off from society. I will stand by my previous statement, I have yet to meet one INTELLEGENT person who can give any reason for saying, "I won’t say the pledge of allegiance". Seriously though, I have to thank Ceol and Hugh for what they said. We all needed a good laugh at work. :D
 
Primer, it seems to me that you get around any arguments you find distasteful by labelling the author unintelligent... which, if you continue, is likely to get you banned.
 
+1 to Tyme.

He would know.

Primer you seem to be a person who is very brash about his feelings and extremely discourteous to those who see things with a different viewpoint. May we never meet in real life.
 
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1.There’s a very real difference between the United States and pretty much every other nation in the world. The difference, first and foremost, is
not about how much money a random American has in his pocket. It’s not even in whether guns/gambling/whatever are legal or not. It’s about a difference in the fundamental approach.

America is the one and only nation in the world who does not simply 'grant' it's subjects right, but which recognises, as a principle, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.. Yes, sometimes America defaults on the check. Yes, I know, Waco, Ruby Ridge, yadda-yadda-yadda. And those are pretty bad. But the thing is, they are not the rule, they are the exception.

America is the best nation in the world, and every single one of her riches flows from the single source, the fact that America is deeply, inexorably, a free nation. Americans invented the airplane, the machinegun, the car, got to the moon and created the Internet because of the fact the American citizens are free to carry a handgun, built a plane in their garage, or order pornography over the phone. America is free.

Therefore, American patriotism is well-justified. After all, Americans ARE living in the best nation there is.

2. You have the right to make a political statement by not saying the pledge.

A political statement is a way to transmit, if you will, your political opinion to others so that they'll react to it.

You're perfectly free to do it. However, you do not have a right to a reaction of your choice.

Cowled Wolfe's friend made a statement of his opinion to him. Cowled Wolfe reacted to it.
 
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