Pledge of Allegiance...

I see the whole "issue" here as being one of a lack of both introspection and observation of reality.

If you make "friends" based only upon whether they conform to your standards of patriotism, then what you're really saying is that you choose to only associate with those whom you can manipulate. Those who do not "go along" with your decisions and choices are "anti-whatever-positon-you-decided-upon".

This is seriously harmful thinking. Amercia is a place of diversity. There are those who choose to be one way and others who choose to be different than that. With this diversity we ALL make things work and this is better than a mono culture that blindly follows along behind whomever is strongest, cleverist, or wittyist.

Blind patriotism is like blind faith. It serves no one except those who believe. It harms ALL who do not adhere to that blindness because there are always those who would use force to cow those who differ or disagree. It creates divisiveness instead of unity. It inspires fear. It gives birth to the "Us versus Them" mentality. It is unAmerican.

Your say your ex-friend is not your friend because he chose to exercised his American right not to speak. Your decision punished him for being American. What does that say about you?

As for the "would you like fries with that" crowd, I grew up NOT saying "under God" in the pledge. I worked my way through law school without student aid, owned my own practice, have owned several businesses, and have in general enjoyed my life. In my experience, saying "under God" made no difference in my accomplishments and/or failures. I suspect is will make no difference in the lives of others who follow in that vein.
 
Nobody makes you open doors for other people. Nobody makes you say "sir", "ma'am", "thank you", or "you're welcome". Nobody makes you take off your hat when you walk into a building, especially a place of worship, or during a prayer. Nobody makes you say the pledge or stand when the flag passes. I find that the people I respect most are the ones who do those things, not because they perform the rituals but because those actions are outward signs of they way they live their lives: with deliberation and respect.
Lead by example CW and don't worry about the others. Some of them will grow out of it.
 
your right on the money kiddo you have the right to pick and choose your freinds keep standing up for what you feel is right and never let in,never follow the leader simply because you want to be popular.We need more people like you.
 
I see the whole "issue" here as being one of a lack of both introspection and observation of reality.

If you make "friends" based only upon whether they conform to your standards of patriotism, then what you're really saying is that you choose to only associate with those whom you can manipulate. Those who do not "go along" with your decisions and choices are "anti-whatever-positon-you-decided-upon".

This is seriously harmful thinking. Amercia is a place of diversity. There are those who choose to be one way and others who choose to be different than that. With this diversity we ALL make things work and this is better than a mono culture that blindly follows along behind whomever is strongest, cleverist, or wittyist.

Blind patriotism is like blind faith. It serves no one except those who believe. It harms ALL who do not adhere to that blindness because there are always those who would use force to cow those who differ or disagree. It creates divisiveness instead of unity. It inspires fear. It gives birth to the "Us versus Them" mentality. It is unAmerican.

Your say your ex-friend is not your friend because he chose to exercised his American right not to speak. Your decision punished him for being American. What does that say about you?

As for the "would you like fries with that" crowd, I grew up NOT saying "under God" in the pledge. I worked my way through law school without student aid, owned my own practice, have owned several businesses, and have in general enjoyed my life. In my experience, saying "under God" made no difference in my accomplishments and/or failures. I suspect is will make no difference in the lives of others who follow in that vein.
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Hooray for moral relativism. :rolleyes:
 
"If it's any consolation, your former friend will probably be asking you if you'd like fries or onion rings with your burger, long after you've moved on to a successful career after High School."

That makes very little sense.
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If I have to explain it, you wouldn't get it anyway.
 
What in the world is with this obsession that taking off one's hat = respect, and leaving one's hat on = disrespect?

That, to me, is an arbitrary and silly way to define respectfulness.

I used to wear a hat all the time when my hair was growing out through an awkward length. THERE WAS NO STATEMENT CONTAINED IN THE WEARING OF MY HAT. If I wore it inside someone's house, and did not take it off, it was because I preferred the aesthetic effect of the hat more than I would have preferred the aesthetic effect of my screwed-up hair! We are all entitled to try to look good, or at least to present ourselves in a way that we think looks good.

Somewhere along the line someone decided to arbitrarily define wearing a hat as disrespectful and taking it off as respectful. Prior to that day, I suppose, no one thought anything different of a guy standing for the national anthem with a hat on. Perhaps. If a person stands for the national anthem and puts his hand on his heart (ALSO an arbitrarily defined act that supposedly says, "I'm paying respect in the 'proper' way.") but is wearing his hat at the same time, you people have a problem with that?

Here's another question (or more): What if a guy DOESN'T respect the nation? And he sits out the national anthem. What then? Does he "not deserve to live here"? Should we go and beat him up, and call him "commie"? Where is it even written that everyone has to love the country, and pay it tribute, and do it someone else's preferred way even if they do?


This kind of nationalism can be, as seems evident here, divisive and petty for no particular reason. And as someone else said, it seems unAmerican to suggest that people in a free country should be free about everything except whether we stand and salute our country.



-blackmind
 
Try to explain it anyway MRex21. Please try to show me the moral relativism too. I'm not seeing it. We're talking about not reciting by rote a loyalty oath originally penned by a socialist that was turned into a prayer in the 1950s, not spreading of venerial disease through promisuous sex or theft of property. I don't see how it has a basis on future individual prosperity either. :confused:
 
The beautiful thing about this country is that you can choose not to say the pledge. The 'evil' governments we've fought over the last century would not give such leeway to its subjects and that's one of the reasons we've always disliked them. Of course we used to laugh at 'papers, please' too... :(
 
Wolfe....there some people(too many I'm afarid) that think to rebel against ANYTHING(good things as well) makes them noble or least an individual to be recognized....that is a fallacy..a poor attempt to make you someone worthy to be noticed by others..(some dress themselves as idiotic circus feaks)..they just don't have the brains to figure out that being a good person is the way to be outstanding...maybe if you had pressed your former friend farther, since his reason to not say the pledge amounted to nothing, I wondered if he really knew the reason why...stay on the right track..remember, anyone who pushes you to lessen yourself is no friend.....
 
I'd just like to note the condescention so many youth these days have with regards to our country;
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Separate the concept of our government from our country. Sometimes the best way to honor a country is to criticize its government. A lot of people casually define "country" to mean "the government," so refusing to recite the pledge can be supremely patriotic.
 
Tyme, you bring up a good point, however in this instance I do mean country, not government, as did the people I've discussed this with.

Wolfe.
 
Wolfe....there some people(too many I'm afarid) that think to rebel against ANYTHING(good things as well) makes them noble or least an individual to be recognized....that is a fallacy..a poor attempt to make you someone worthy to be noticed by others..(some dress themselves as idiotic circus feaks)..they just don't have the brains to figure out that being a good person is the way to be outstanding...maybe if you had pressed your former friend farther, since his reason to not say the pledge amounted to nothing, I wondered if he really knew the reason why...stay on the right track..remember, anyone who pushes you to lessen yourself is no friend.....
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+1 aspen1964. Well stated.
 
There might be another reason. Are those people US citizens? If so there's no reason for them to pledge allegiance to the US flag, which isn't theirs after all. As a non-US citizen I spent a couple of years in a US primary school. I never pledged allegiance to the US flag, just stood silently waiting to get started. Teachers and fellow students asked, but they always accepted my explanation.

Cheers,
ErikM :D
 
"If I have to explain it, you wouldn't get it anyway."

It doesn't need explaining to me, I understand his point of view and agree.

kenny b
 
No way will I pledge allegiance to the USA. Why should I? What has it, as a nation-state, done to earn my respect? It blatantly ignores its own charter. It taxes me, and uses the money to create a global empire and a national dependency class. It regulates my personal possessions and demands easy access to my communications. It has done nothing whatsoever to benefit me.

I'll pledge my allegiance to freedom, but the United States of America is not an entity even remotely concerned with freedom, despite the occasional lip service the concept gets.
 
No way will I pledge allegiance to the USA. Why should I? What has it, as a nation-state, done to earn my respect? It blatantly ignores its own charter. It taxes me, and uses the money to create a global empire and a national dependency class. It regulates my personal possessions and demands easy access to my communications. It has done nothing whatsoever to benefit me.
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Kind of gives a whole new meaning to "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country".
 
Good post Ceol Mhor. Worse than not supporting liberty...the government of the United States is actually engaged in destroying liberty both here and abroad.

That's why I love my country..but hate and fear the government which controls it.
 
Bravo25, I'm not asking my country to do anything for me but leave me alone. Instead, it insists on treating me like a resourse to be cataloged, milked, and carefully regulated and monitored lest I appear to be a threat. There is no conceivable way I will pledge fealty to such an entity.
 
I remember having slight issues with the pledge when I was in school. Until middle school I went right along and did exactly what the other kids did. Eventually I wondered what it was about and actually put some thought into what I was saying every morning. After a while I just stopped getting up and saying it. I never told anyone not to, never bothered anyone during it.

The mention of god in the pledge didn't upset me but I didn't simply ignore it. I won't say "amen" after a group prayer and I won't put my hand on a bible in court. Despite the fact that I was raised catholic and at mass I still fall into the habit of taking communion, I simply don't agree with any form of government appeasing to any particular religion. I'm not going to argue and denounce it, not going to whine and complain about the horrible injustice and the tyrannical theocratic oppression yada yada yada. It's not that big of a deal. I just choose not to participate in certain rituals that I simply don't agree with.


My dad was military. He said the pledge when he was in school yet when I first brought up the issue he told me same thing he always told me. When in doubt just do what I feel is the right thing to do.

I won't remain seated during the national anthem, though....besides, I'm a notorious procrastinator and was often finishing up homework during the annoucements. :D
 
Its not about making freinds its about if you dont like my country and refuse to be patriotic then get the hell out!!! The same go"s for being queer i have the right to be aganst it and fight it as much as i wish as long as i stay within the written law.I have the right to be proud of america and try to sway people in the same direction and im tired of little piss ants going on and on about tearing down their rights to be against the nation they live in and being gay.The same nation many have died for to protect to keep their stinking asse's free and jesus died on the cross to protect from sin (such as being gay)...and thats all i'll say about that ..sorry i blew up but thats how i feel.
 
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