Piston Operated AR

[HKFan9]

Carl Noveske agree's as well

But I guess your opinion is more valid than his as well.

Taken from: http://www.defensereview.com/novesk...ecce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

Crane: You’re not doin’ a piston gun, right?

Noveske: No.

Crane: Do you have any plans to do a piston gun?

Noveske: We have piston plans, but we don’t have any plans of putting it in production, because it’s…I don’t think it’s necessary. I’ve got piston guns here from other makers, and they’re dirty, and I don’t see…

Crane: Whadya’ mean "dirty"?

Noveske: Open up the bolt and look inside, and it’s dirty inside. The whole thing about them running clean is not necessarily…o.k., let me back up. I only run the guns with suppressors for testing when I did my comparison, and with suppressors, direct-impingement and piston-operated were both very dirty, ’cause the blowback comes to the chamber, not the gas tube. And, I’m not real happy with the piston systems that I’ve shot and examined, so it’s just to me, it’s not…

Crane: Well, the piston…the advantage for a piston with a suppressor on there is supposedly it doesn’t blow all the gunk back in your face.

Noveske: O.k., but what you’re not paying attention to is that all that crap comes back through the chamber, not the gas tube. On a piston gun or gas-impingement, the case is being extracted while the suppressor is still under pressure. Now you have all the pressure in that suppressor exiting both out the front and the back.

Crane: Right, but you’re saying the piston gun doesn’t solve that?

Noveske: It does not solve that. They’re both dirty.


Crane: So then how come you hear about guys saying yeah, when they’re shootin’ the direct gas impingement guns suppressed, or whatever, they’re gettin’ a lot of gas and particulate matter in their face, whereas with the piston, that it dissipates that a bit, or whatever.

Noveske: Maybe they had a different experience.

Crane: Hm. So, in other words, you’re saying that basically the piston doesn’t really offer any real advantage for that.

Noveske: What I’m saying, with a suppressor, direct-impingement and gas-piston both run dirty, and even a blowback gun or a delayed-blowback gun, like an H&K [Heckler & Koch], or any other operating system–I don’t really care what operating system you have–on an auto-loader, with a sound suppressor, they’re gonna’ all run dirty.

Crane: Right. Now, is a piston gun gonna’ put any less gas and particulate matter in your face, or are you gonna’ get the same amount?

Noveske: All a piston gun is gonna’ do different from gas impingement with a suppressor is reduce the amount that is coming through the gas tube. The piston gun is gonna’ eliminate that. I am not a scientist, but from my observations in shooting and examining the guns afterwards, it appears that the vast majority of the gas coming through is coming through the chamber. And, one example is go look at any of the HK91 or HK93-type rifles. Those have the fluted chamber and delayed blowback, and the cases are always black just like the case fired out of the gun with a suppressor. That’s because the case is extracting while it is still under pressure, and you have gas blowing back along the case as it’s blowing out, and covering it with carbon. And, that’s what’s happening with any autoloader with a suppressor. The cases all have carbon on them, because gas is escaping around the case out the chamber and into the receiver.


[DefenseReview received the following post-interview via email from John Noveske: "Also, we should mention the poor choice of platform for the piston conversion on a round receiver bore as found on the M16/M4 system. All other piston type systems out there utilize a railed receiver design, like the M14, AK-47, M249, FAL and so on. The round receiver bore design used on the M4 is only acceptable for the standard op system. The carrier and bolt expand on axis with the bore under the normal gas impingement cycle, but on a piston gun, you run into off center impulse issues with carrier tilt and incorrectly designed carrier contact points. Some designs attempt to address the carrier tilt problem with over sized carrier tails and rollers. I do not believe the receiver extension should be used in this manor. I know many people are very happy with their piston weapons. This is not meant as a knock on the piston conversion systems out there, but as a philosophical dialogue focused the new physiological relationships applied to the M16/M4 platform through the introduction of an operating system which has traditionally been applied to receivers with rails for the bolt and/or carrier. I would rather see an entirely new weapon system designed for the piston from the ground up. I believe there several outfits currently working on this."]

Source: DefenseReview.com (http://s.tt/13fm6)

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

Well lets see... Kraig has used the AR for combat as well as highly ranked competition.

Good for him. I like people that use what they buy and don't let it sit around gathering moss or dust or whatever gathers in his part of the country.

I work with firearms every day of my life and making a living from them. You can come into where I work asking for your extremely over priced piston AR and yes I will make more money from selling you that gun.. but we keep an honest business and me and all my co-workers... 2 of which were former Green Berets of the 5th will tell the same thing when it comes to DI vs. Piston.

You don't have to worry about that. I won't come in to your extremely over priced store. I have people I deal with directly who don't over price things.

I get paid time and expenses to sit there on ranges and fire new products from a lot of very large manufactures, generally two to three times a year, to evaluate and give feed back on their firearms

.

Good for you. I get paid to sit around and analyze lots of data but, I recognize that doesn't make me an expert on all data from every source.

I would really like to know what qualifications you have that can speak over mine and Kraigs.

I don't believe I've ever stated that I have more qualifications than anyone on anything - but, I'm also not obligated to believe what ever's written on the Internet by unverified sources who may or may not be keyboard commandos.

I do give my Doctor medical advise, nor my lawyer legal advise.

You DO give your doctor medical advice? Well okay then. I just ask them a lot of questions when I go to see them about specific conditions. I try to be as well informed on the subject as I can be so I fully understand their diagnoses, and when I don't fully understand what they've said, I can ask questions to get the information I need to make a decision - I don't agree with them all of the time - we usually work out some kind of compromise. I'd get into the nephritis issue I had but, it's long, boring, and I turned out to be right on that one...

I find it hard to understand why someone would spend X amount of more dollars to use proprietary parts that offer no real significant advantage.

You haven't been reading very carefully have you. Let me give you a hint. It's black, made out of cordura nylon, and has a large...LOGO on one side. I don't need a reason that makes any sense to you. I don't need to justify how I spend my money to you. I don't owe anything to you, and I don't need your opinion on how you think I SHOULD spend my money. Okay?

Yes Barrett makes a great product.. but things do wear out... they do break. When that happens I can get parts anywhere for a dime a dozen. Short of receivers I have all the parts laying around to build a few more guns because as we replace parts for customers who are customizing their AR's we offer them a discount if we can keep their parts that are in good working order that they are replacing. They are happy.. and I get all the parts I can dream of.

I certainly admire dreamers....but, I'm not worried about breaking the rifle. I thought about that very subject when I purchased the rifle and it was a point I mulled over for a considerable length of time.

After discussing related medical issues with my doctors, I doubt the rifle will get shot more than about 5K rounds per year for some very specific reasons that I have no control over. So, I decided, what the heck let's see how a good quality piston rifle shoots and performs, as I've never had one. I don't think I need any more reasons than that.

FYI - I had a Colt AR in the early '80's and sold it because it fed unreliably and I didn't feel like fooling around with it at the time to make it work.

You can sit here and attack us all you want.. but I have yet to see you offer one valid point for spending the extra money on the Rec7 besides that you did. You're merely making yourself look childish. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

I haven't "attacked" anyone. I've never told anyone their choices were wrong, that they should be doing things as I see them, and posted 20 self justifications for owning a product in hopes that my reasons will make the other person fess up that they really wasted their money on a piston rifle and if they weren't so blinded by the techology would have made the "right" purchase - obviously a DI AR 15.

As I've stated previously, I don't owe you or anyone else a justification or any reason for owning the REC7...other than that really cool black gun case with the huge Barrett logo on it....

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

But I guess your opinion is more valid than his as well. >>>Interview with Noveske Follows<<<

Unlike the DI crowd, I've never said my opinion was more valid than anyone elses and tried 100 ways to "prove" my point.

The interview with Noveske is interesting, but if you interviewed Ronnie Barrett as to why he chose a piston system for his guns, I'm sure you'd come away with an interview that was equally as interesting and convincing.

Unlike a lot of the people posting, I've actually now owned both - a DI and a piston rifle. I bought the piston because I've never owned one (had owned a DI in the 1980's).

After researching all of the piston rifles made, it came down to the REC 7, an HK model, and a SIG. I decided to try out the Barrett as it cost less, and I thought had better engineering of the piston system - certainly easier to clean the piston / rod.

I don't think I need to be an "expert" to make a decision past the point that the REC 7 looked like a quality product of a type (piston AR) that I've never owned. That's it. Nothing more complicated than that.

Next week, I may buy another DI - who knows. I do have an idea about an AR10 rifle - but, I'm still in the early stages of researching that one.

 

[Father Time]

I don't need a reason that makes any sense to you. I don't need to justify how I spend my money to you. I don't owe anything to you, and I don't need your opinion on how you think I SHOULD spend my money. Okay?

They why are your pulling apart people's post trying to poke hole's in what they say.
Why even bother if your so indefferent?

Many posters here have posted their personal experiances. And posted the findings of other's who have done testing on the merits of piston vs DI rifles.
And instead of citing your own sources you simply make sarcastic comments about "justifications" and how cool your rifle case looks.


I'm not trying to attack you I'm just trying to understand your motivations in this thread.

 

[HKFan9]

FYI - I had a Colt AR in the early '80's and sold it because it fed unreliably and I didn't feel like fooling around with it at the time to make it work.

I guess all dogs are poodles then.... quick someone inform the Pentagon

I am glad you are happy with your rifle, and especially your rifle case, just doesn't do anything more than a plain jane DI AR won't do. Bushmaster also comes with a hard plastic case with its name on the side.. you could have saved a bundle.... oh Stay Arms does as well... yep... Smith & Wesson as well... even in the cheaper sport line model. Who'd a thunk such bad companies can keep up with big brother Barrett in the rifle case department.

I was sarcastic trying to earn your respects because apparently they speaks worlds of merit in your mind.

It is pretty funny however you analyse data.... yet on paper its pretty clear that piston driven doesn't offer any major advantages.

I have no issues with your Rec7.. and i truly am glad you are happy with your purchase despite our differences... but i have the same questions the person above me posted... if you don't care and its your money... why get involved in a debate about it?

You tried to punch holes in everyones argument, and when people bring facts and knowledge.. you bring... sarcasm? Then at the end of it your post boils down to "I am upset because its my money and i bought what I wanted with it and you think otherwise." So what your hinting at is that is your only grounds for arguing... which in turn means you really don't have anything to back up why a gas piston driven AR is any better....? B/c it costs more?

 

[Art Eatman]

The OP left on account of excessive snark, back about halfway down Page 1. Y'all arguing among yourselves can't help answer his questions at all.

G'night...