Piston Operated AR
- Thread starter Shotgun693
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BPowderkeg
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i disagree that the LMT is the best piston gun/upper made, the original LWRC (now, LWRCI) was and still is the first and best piston system made, ALL the other makers had to jump in with their own design in order to compete, some are good, some not so good due to "gotta make one" mentality.
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PWS is good but...
I shopped around and pretty much had my mind set on a PWS piston upper but the price was $200 more for their system vs the Adams Arms that I ended up buying.
The bottom line is that there are good piston systems out there and the known issues have been designed out of most current systems.
I would have no problem owning a LMT, LWRC, Ruger, Adams, PWS, S&W.
I shopped around and pretty much had my mind set on a PWS piston upper but the price was $200 more for their system vs the Adams Arms that I ended up buying.
The bottom line is that there are good piston systems out there and the known issues have been designed out of most current systems.
I would have no problem owning a LMT, LWRC, Ruger, Adams, PWS, S&W.
Hey Shotgun693, I am not the resident expert on AR (piston or DI ) however... if you could answer a couple of questions, the forum members might be able to give better advice.
1) What will you be doing with the rifle - target shooting, bench rest or offhand, desert survival, varmint dispach, etc -
2) How much are you willing to spend?
3) Have you held either rifle in your hands (DI / piston)? Pistons do make the rifle a bit more "front heavy"
Best of luck
1) What will you be doing with the rifle - target shooting, bench rest or offhand, desert survival, varmint dispach, etc -
2) How much are you willing to spend?
3) Have you held either rifle in your hands (DI / piston)? Pistons do make the rifle a bit more "front heavy"
Best of luck
That is silly.
The question is about Piston vs. DI not rifles. If the AK is more reliable its because its a sloppy piece of crap.
To compare the Piston VS DI in the same rifle, such as Piston VS DI AR or AK or what ever.
You're not going to see a reliablity difference in the piston, nor will you see an accuracy improvement.
Contrary to the stories from internet experts, DI M16s work in mud.
Not to down your ruger but i'll just be honest. The Ruger 556 is notoriously known for carrier tilt. Matter of fact there aren't many Piston driven weapons that i've seen just fabulous reports on. I see a couple of people that have good experiences with POF then others have horrible experiences. As for LWRC i've seen reports of return spring wearing down after about 500rds and having to replaced. That being said POF design makes more sense IMO than a conversion kit for a DI or LWRCs design with the return spring.
Here's some pictures from a couple members at the hide and their experience with LMT piston and Ruger.
Here's some pictures from a couple members at the hide and their experience with LMT piston and Ruger.
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BPowderkeg
Moderator
AMEN my friend ! besides, i do not like commie guns.
BPowderkeg
Moderator
what exactly is your definition of the "action spring" ? i have an LWRC ODA (ODA is basically an M4 clone) carbine that has over 5,000 rounds thru it and i see no wear in the lower receiver extension or buffer which is an Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer.
some of the things i read here about a piston gun is front heavy is nonsense, the difference in weight is a about 3-4 ounces (if that) for an LWRCI rifle, i do not know about any others.
carrier tilt, must be something that occurs in ill designed guns, i have 5 piston carbines, all with over 3,000 rounds thru them, one has about 7,000 rnds. and have not had any of the problems being talked about.., maybe.., just maybe the LWRCI is the best piston AR type carbine made !!
Ok Guys. Here’s the “quick and dirty” over view on the whys and wherefores of both systems.
Direct gas impingement (Stoner system and so on) is a good system but has potential weaknesses.
#1 the exhaust and fouling is directed into the working of the action. So it’s got to use correct powders and correct charges. That is NOT a problem in the USA any more. Powders that don’t work are simply never used in the AR or the shells it fires.
#2 the system is best used “wet” with a good grade of detergent oil in the action. Again it’s NOT a problem as most gun-oils and many “non-gun oils” like Mobil 1 work perfectly. And you DON’T need to have it dripping. You need only keep a light coat on the parts and if you put about 2 drops into the exhaust holes on the bolt carrier about every 300-400 rounds the rifles seem to work forever.
#3 the bolt and carrier get REAL hot in long strings of full auto fire. After heating and cooling many times the heat treatment of the factory parts is altered, and that can and sometimes does lead to bolt failures in time. This complaint has some merit. The M-16 had a good track record from about 1968 on, but this complaint is something that can stand improvement. HOWEVER is does NOT exist in semi-auto guns or using semi-auto fire because the heat cannot build up enough to effect the original heat treatment of the bolts unless you get it over 650 degrees. You would need about 500 rounds all loaded in mags on a table with nothing to do but pull the trigger and fire and change mages (all 25 of them) as fast as you could possibly fore and reload. In other words, it’s never going to happen.
The up-side to the Stoner system is its accuracy. I have heard many claims of sub MOA accuracy with piston guns. I am a full time gunsmith and I deal with accuracy in rifles every day of my life. To say it flatly, I have yet to actually see a consistent sub-MOA piston rifle. However sub MOA Stoner System ARS are so common as to me boring. About any D.I AR with a match barrel and a free float tube will shoot sub MOA, and in fact some shoot so good that it’s shocking
Piston guns do run cooler. Yup-----sure do.
So?
If you are not going to have a full auto, it won’t matter.
A Dodge Turbo Diesel 1 ton truck will carry more weight then a sports car too.
If you NEVER carry more then 5 bags of groceries from the store, is the truck “better” then the 2 door sports car? Is it worth $40,000 to you to go to the store one time a month?
If you NEVER carry anything more then 100 pounds in your auto but you just love 1 ton trucks, and if you can afford your truck, buy it.
If the idea of having a piston AR is worth it to you, buy that too.
But if it’s not full auto, I can pretty much promise you, you are not ever going to “need’ the piston.
As far as them being more reliable in sand, that’s simply not true at all. Sand clogging the workings of an AR has nothing at all to do with a piston or lack of a piston.
Direct gas impingement (Stoner system and so on) is a good system but has potential weaknesses.
#1 the exhaust and fouling is directed into the working of the action. So it’s got to use correct powders and correct charges. That is NOT a problem in the USA any more. Powders that don’t work are simply never used in the AR or the shells it fires.
#2 the system is best used “wet” with a good grade of detergent oil in the action. Again it’s NOT a problem as most gun-oils and many “non-gun oils” like Mobil 1 work perfectly. And you DON’T need to have it dripping. You need only keep a light coat on the parts and if you put about 2 drops into the exhaust holes on the bolt carrier about every 300-400 rounds the rifles seem to work forever.
#3 the bolt and carrier get REAL hot in long strings of full auto fire. After heating and cooling many times the heat treatment of the factory parts is altered, and that can and sometimes does lead to bolt failures in time. This complaint has some merit. The M-16 had a good track record from about 1968 on, but this complaint is something that can stand improvement. HOWEVER is does NOT exist in semi-auto guns or using semi-auto fire because the heat cannot build up enough to effect the original heat treatment of the bolts unless you get it over 650 degrees. You would need about 500 rounds all loaded in mags on a table with nothing to do but pull the trigger and fire and change mages (all 25 of them) as fast as you could possibly fore and reload. In other words, it’s never going to happen.
The up-side to the Stoner system is its accuracy. I have heard many claims of sub MOA accuracy with piston guns. I am a full time gunsmith and I deal with accuracy in rifles every day of my life. To say it flatly, I have yet to actually see a consistent sub-MOA piston rifle. However sub MOA Stoner System ARS are so common as to me boring. About any D.I AR with a match barrel and a free float tube will shoot sub MOA, and in fact some shoot so good that it’s shocking
Piston guns do run cooler. Yup-----sure do.
So?
If you are not going to have a full auto, it won’t matter.
A Dodge Turbo Diesel 1 ton truck will carry more weight then a sports car too.
If you NEVER carry more then 5 bags of groceries from the store, is the truck “better” then the 2 door sports car? Is it worth $40,000 to you to go to the store one time a month?
If you NEVER carry anything more then 100 pounds in your auto but you just love 1 ton trucks, and if you can afford your truck, buy it.
If the idea of having a piston AR is worth it to you, buy that too.
But if it’s not full auto, I can pretty much promise you, you are not ever going to “need’ the piston.
As far as them being more reliable in sand, that’s simply not true at all. Sand clogging the workings of an AR has nothing at all to do with a piston or lack of a piston.
BPowderkeg said:
The return spring in the piston that redirects the motion of the rod forward putting the carrier back in battery and closing the bolt. Sorry I should've been more precise. I wasn't stating that all LWRCs have problems just said I've seen reports of the spring mashing and wearing out after 500rds didn't say it was a definite problem.
I work behind the gun counter, so naturally I shoot a lot.
I buy factory ammo at cost.. something most people can't. I also handload myself single stage, along with pay (usually with pizza beer and wings during football season) 3 other guys in m shooting circle that have Dillon progressives to reload for me.
I am usually at the range 1 to 3 times a week. My AR always gets shot the most... generally 500-1000 rounds each session. So I rack up a decently high round count.
How am I able to do this with a filthy DI rifle you may be asking yourselves.
About every 1000 rounds I will pull the BCG out... spray it down with EEZOX. I do not work for them... the store I work out doesn't even stock it.. I am pleased with it and order it for myself. More importantly ofcourse.. it smells awesome.
About every 5000ish rounds (never exact). Basically when I feel like its time to give baby a bath. I strip off the plastics.. stock.. grip... rail covers, and whatever optic I may have on it.
I separate the upper and lower and pull the bolt carrier group.... then I just throw the complete upper and lower into the parts washer in the gun smith's room at work.. along with the BCG. I let it sit and soak over night. I come back the next day.. let it dry.. give it a good spray with the air hose.... then spray it down with EEZOX again.. and away we go.
Now you might be asking "Well what do I do... I don't have a parts washer at my house?!"
Well before I bugged our gun smith enough to let me use his... I had equally successful results using a solvent of my choice, and a shallow rubber maid container... ones designed to slide under the bed.
Gun Scrubber high pressure spray also works wonders on BCG's
I have never had to sit there with little action brushes.. or carbon scrapers.
The point of all this? I spend very minimal time cleaning my AR.. and it still runs like a sewing machine. Are my methods the best? No.. not at all... but for those complaining about cleaning and that DI is so filthy... I really fail to see the argument. I shoot in a month what a lot of guys post their round counts as in a lot the piston guns. Personally I would buy DI and use your extra money on ammo. Either gun is gonna run just as clean when you can't afford to shoot them as much as you'd like.
Skipped a step! I will generally spray some gun scrubber down the barrel and run an Otis or bore snake through it just to clean any big build ups or obstructions. I don't worry about group size in my 14'' BCM much.. so I know this step will be very lacking in a cleaning regiment for a barrel compared to most.
Personally I don't trust a super clean gun... just like when you go to buy a used car... there should be some dirt under the hood.
I buy factory ammo at cost.. something most people can't. I also handload myself single stage, along with pay (usually with pizza beer and wings during football season) 3 other guys in m shooting circle that have Dillon progressives to reload for me.
I am usually at the range 1 to 3 times a week. My AR always gets shot the most... generally 500-1000 rounds each session. So I rack up a decently high round count.
How am I able to do this with a filthy DI rifle you may be asking yourselves.
About every 1000 rounds I will pull the BCG out... spray it down with EEZOX. I do not work for them... the store I work out doesn't even stock it.. I am pleased with it and order it for myself. More importantly ofcourse.. it smells awesome.
About every 5000ish rounds (never exact). Basically when I feel like its time to give baby a bath. I strip off the plastics.. stock.. grip... rail covers, and whatever optic I may have on it.
I separate the upper and lower and pull the bolt carrier group.... then I just throw the complete upper and lower into the parts washer in the gun smith's room at work.. along with the BCG. I let it sit and soak over night. I come back the next day.. let it dry.. give it a good spray with the air hose.... then spray it down with EEZOX again.. and away we go.
Now you might be asking "Well what do I do... I don't have a parts washer at my house?!"
Well before I bugged our gun smith enough to let me use his... I had equally successful results using a solvent of my choice, and a shallow rubber maid container... ones designed to slide under the bed.
Gun Scrubber high pressure spray also works wonders on BCG's
I have never had to sit there with little action brushes.. or carbon scrapers.
The point of all this? I spend very minimal time cleaning my AR.. and it still runs like a sewing machine. Are my methods the best? No.. not at all... but for those complaining about cleaning and that DI is so filthy... I really fail to see the argument. I shoot in a month what a lot of guys post their round counts as in a lot the piston guns. Personally I would buy DI and use your extra money on ammo. Either gun is gonna run just as clean when you can't afford to shoot them as much as you'd like.
Skipped a step! I will generally spray some gun scrubber down the barrel and run an Otis or bore snake through it just to clean any big build ups or obstructions. I don't worry about group size in my 14'' BCM much.. so I know this step will be very lacking in a cleaning regiment for a barrel compared to most.
Personally I don't trust a super clean gun... just like when you go to buy a used car... there should be some dirt under the hood.
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Hmmm... once again I BEG the question:
How do you add parts to the front end of a rifle and expect that it won't weigh more?
I have nothing against forward piston AR's, or the weight factor. I'm just stating what I perceive to be a noteworthy difference in handling of the rifle. Hell, my DI LMT CQB is front - heavy because of the monolithic upper & .750 barrel. I live with it.
Maybe it's easy to forget how an M4 feels (pick up a Colt 6920) if you haven't held one in awhile.
Your first paragraph was about how to keep it wet. What do you think the heat generated by extended firing does to that oil you're slopping in there? It doesn't do a lot for your BCG longevity either.
I don't read many complaints about the HK416 or MR556. They run just fine in a lot of different environments.
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