Piston Operated AR

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HKguns said:
I don't read many complaints about the HK416 or MR556. They run just fine in a lot of different environments.

As do some DI's that are 1/3 the cost.

I'm sure HK's design is doing well..but the 416 runs a civilian what? 3000+? Sure the MR556 is 500$ cheaper, but at 2500$ you can get yourself a quality AR, Rails, Optic, and probably even a quality light. Honestly they both get dirty, maybe one more than the other but doesn't discredit it. Also what about the need of parts? Wear and tear on parts is a part of both systems due to mechanical stress. DI well it's standardized parts are plentiful, Piston is subject to manufacturer right?

DI will go quite the amount of rounds dry before failing.
 
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BlackOps... for that $3000 on the H&K we can just go out and buy 4 DI AR's..... when one fails just pick up the next! I like to refer to this as the redneck reload....:rolleyes:
 
I'm sure HK's design is doing well..but the 416 runs a civilian what? 3000+? Sure the MR556 is 500$ cheaper,

Did HK start selling class 3 weapons to civilians? Pretty sure all you can get without wearing a uniform is the MR556. (unless the German export law that regulates this type of thing has changed)
 
On LWRCs, you do know that the termed "action spring" really isn't necessary, right? When the bolt slams home the piston will return to it's original position. I'd be very curious to see how a failure in the "action spring" after 500 rounds caused the gun to malfunction.
 
See above where i corrected my statement. I never stated it caused failure as i stated i've seen reports of having to replace it every 500rds or so. The report i read stated that the spring wasn't replaced once worn and it broke the spring cup. Just stating what i've seen reports on. Also as I stated maybe that was just "one of those situations".

HkFan said:
BlackOps... for that $3000 on the H&K we can just go out and buy 4 DI AR's..... when one fails just pick up the next! I like to refer to this as the redneck reload....

I agree haha but we wouldn't want 4 DI's thats 4x the filth that we could eliminate with one reputable piston driven AR rifle :rolleyes:
 
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If the DoD wanted to issue and *pay* for me to tote around a H&K 416.... I wouldn't really care.

I spend a lot of money... a lot... of money... on firearms.... but I fail to see spending $2600 on the H&K that does absolutely nothing more than my BCM I built up for ~$600 wont do, besides staying a little cleaner... which is negated by my less than strict cleaning schedule already posted.

I do not own an AR to hang cool things off of so it looks cool to my friends and the pics of it online. I own an AR to hang cool things off of that I can run around and get DIRTY with and smack it off stuff.. and drop it... and shoot it till the barrel smokes through the hand guards, and drop it in bucket off water to cool her off. All of which I have done with my AR's... and friends AR's:rolleyes:

Before my BCM I had a Stag Arms that I was more than happy with. One day at a buddys shooting on some private land.. we were going up the mountain to the range.... you need a 4x4 or a 4-wheeler to get up it. Well long story short I ended up rolling me... the quad... and the Stag down the side of a rocky hill.:rolleyes:

All 3 of us were fine, the Stag got dirty and banged up.. but ran fine all day.

It all comes down to the $$$ for us.. and the military. If the benefits... don't out weight the cost of replacing the millions of DI guns they already have in service.... then it most likely won't happen. In the case of a Piston vs DI gun... I don't see anything to make it worth it.
 
I'm not sure what to make of the constant "My choice is better than your choice" posts - complete with, "I can buy xx of these for the same $$" as proof positive that a certain value judgement is "best." I'm not convinced any of this is the least bit germaine to making a choice in a specific gun platform.

None of the comments shows anything but a poster's bias towards what they've purchased backed up with their rationale for making the purchase - usually including a some trite phrase (e.g. "solution in search of a problem.") as the coupe de grace in ending the thread with their post.

I have yet to read any of these post fests where anyone makes a cogent, unbiased commentary on the relative merits of each type of semi-automatic system.

Me, I'll make it really simple. I'm fickle, biased, and choose products for my own personal reasons. I own a Barrett REC7 because it's the only rifle they make that I can afford - and it seems to be an exceptionally reliable rifle. As a side note - it's a piston driven AR15 that uses Barrett's proprietary piston system and bolt / bolt carrier group. Barrett put a lot of time, engineering, and testing into the design to make a high reliability rifle at the request of a special operations group - originally in 6.8 SBC.

The down side - because of the proprietary nature of the design and bolt / bolt carrier - as far as I can tell - it is incompatible with any other upper on the market.

The upside is - it says "Barrett" on the side of the lower if you look really closely - otherwise it looks like all of the other black rifles on the market. The remainder of the rifle is high quality parts, Magpul, Daniel Defense, etc. I have shot multiple MOA groups at 100 yards - at least that's the best I can do with it.

In the few rounds I've run through it (2,000) it's never malfunctioned in any way - I've cleaned it once at 1,000 rounds and the bolt and inside of the receiver were so clean they looked like the gun had never been shot. The gun is totally unremarkable in its performance so far, I just change magazines and shoot.

Oh yeah - the trigger. From the manufacturer - I'm sure it's swell in the field when you're dragging the gun in the dirt as you crawl across the ground sneaking up on ...your choice of targets. However, the 8lb, 2-stage trigger I found to be enormously aggravating for my use. I swapped it out for a Wilson Combat TTU-3G - problem solved.

That's about it - other than it comes with a really cool padded gun case with lots of outside pockets on it for magazines, and other necessities. The case has one large, long pocket on it, and the inside of the case has corner retainers for the muzzle and stock, and velcro straps to hold the rifle in the case. The rifle will easily fit in the case with a scope on the gun.

Putting functionality aside - the best part? The case has a giant Barrett logo sewn on the outside - I can't get it mixed up with any other short, wide, black cordura nylon case I have.
 
I have yet to read any of these post fests where anyone makes a cogent, unbiased commentary on the relative merits of each type of semi-automatic system


I'll give you a "merit" regarding the DI. Thousands upon thousands of ARs are used in NRA and CMP Service Rifle Completions every year.

You will not be competitive if you don't use an AR in todays world.

Anyone getting involved in service rifle shooting eventually drifts toward working on their Distinguished Rifle Badge. The EIC, and President's Hundred as well as other programs are conducted under CMP Rules.

If you read the CMP Rules for the Service Rifle you'll find that "piston' ARs are out. They do not fit under the Service Rifle Rules.

If one is thinking about Service Rifle Shooting, I believe you should make your choice accordingly.
 
Where you put the piston is entire up to the buyer. What goes along with making that decision is whether the marketing and fanboys claims actually stand up.

Cleaner: It's claimed the piston runs a cleaner action, but in reality, all self loading actions pass gas around the case as they unlock, dumping it on the bolt. This simple fact is disengenously ignored by piston fans. I'd like to find the pic of the AK bolt seriously encrusted with gas residue after 2,000 rounds - as long as the action is opening before all the gas pressure is exhausted from the barrel, then gas will contaminate the action. What's important here is that a soldier will lube it and wipe it down daily, mandatory because of the environment.

Piston compared to piston, they both get equally dirty - and it's been proved more than once, you can neglect them equally, too. If that's your choice, fine, but claiming the piston runs cleaner isn't necessarily so. And trying to clean it is more difficult - you can't shotgun the action and pull the bolt out of the carrier in 30 seconds. You will fight the handguard or likely, the attached free float, off the gun to get to it.

Cooler: yes, a piston gun runs cooler at the bolt face and carrier. DI warms up about 50-80 degrees more. That's it, you can still shotgun it and disassemble the bolt from the carrier barehanded. BUT, heat at the piston on the barrel has been measured above 400 degrees, requiring the use of a high temp handguard, usually an aluminum free float. Piston gun users are commonly reporting using a glove on the off hand because of it.

Reliability: No documented testing. It's expensive. Just marketing claims that are largely biased attempts to magnify the old rumors of gas residue jamming the DI action. That's significant because it IS rumor - the major cause of stoppages reported by the military and most professional users is magazines, ammo, and user incompetence - not gas residue. That will be exactly the same for a piston gun, too - there's no effective difference, they use the identical magazine, ammo, and shooter.

Tilting carriers: the M16 was designed to use gas pressure to push the carrier straight back on its axis. It even uses that same pressure to counteract the case head pressing against the bolt face to help the lugs turn and unlock. When a piston design is adapted, it usually is attached at the gas key, which was never designed for the thrust. It's offset from the axis of the carrier, which does tilt it. Many piston gun makers now use specially designed carriers to compensate, with additional material added to the carrier to limit this tilt. In a purpose built gas piston gun, the bolt carrier rides on rails to control it - and it's not a problem. AR = no rails = modified carriers to reduce the tilt.

The three major "advantages" of a piston AR are mentioned over and over to help the makers SELL GUNS. It's about protecting your marketing position, and being different in a saturated market means putting out something more than another Me, Too! gun. Pistons are a modification of a gun that was designed to eliminate the op rod and it's disadvantages - losing the parts makes the gun simpler, more reliable, and has more design efficiency.

It's usually brought up and explained carefully in most DI vs Piston threads that the three claims of running cooler, cleaner, and more reliably aren't really substantiated. The actual point is to defend the selling of $400 more in parts and giving it the "Rolex" spin to justify what you get - a status symbol at the range. If someone has already drank the piston koolaid then changing their mind is long past accomplishing. Enjoy and have fun, just don't expect us to join in with the same relish. We'll be in the next lane outshooting you, skill counts for more when there's really no difference in the tools.

And that's what she told me. :D
 
In the few rounds I've run through it (2,000) it's never malfunctioned in any way - I've cleaned it once at 1,000 rounds and the bolt and inside of the receiver were so clean they looked like the gun had never been shot. The gun is totally unremarkable in its performance so far, I just change magazines and shoot.

I guess in my bias posts you missed the fact I said about this exact type of statement.

~2000 rounds out of an AR is barely even broken in yet... I don't even clean my filthy disgusting dirty DI system with only 2000 rounds through it.

I will say... Barrett makes amazing firearms and all the ones I ever shot were a joy to shoot. However I really wouldn't purchase a Piston rod type AR for already mentioned reasons.

The H&K 416 is slightly different in that it does use rails in the receiver for the bolt to ride on, like Tirod mentioned about other gas piston designs.

I guess I see the point of some people buying piston guns... I have a bunch of old Sako rifles that are gorgeous.. but my modern Remington 700's out shoot them. I keep the Sako's in the safe and shoot/hunt with them on occasion because they are beautifully crafted tools, but when wanting to shoot any kind of serious groups.. I generally grab my 700 LTR or 6.8SPC 700 Tactical.
 
And trying to clean it is more difficult - you can't shotgun the action and pull the bolt out of the carrier in 30 seconds. You will fight the handguard or likely, the attached free float, off the gun to get to it.

You need to look at the Barrett REC 7 system. You push in a button, rotate a lever at the front of the gas plug, pull out the gas plug, tip the gun with the muzzle facing down, and the piston and rod come out. That's it - takes all of 5-10 seconds and no tools other than your fingers.

Cooler: yes, a piston gun runs cooler at the bolt face and carrier. DI warms up about 50-80 degrees more. That's it, you can still shotgun it and disassemble the bolt from the carrier barehanded. BUT, heat at the piston on the barrel has been measured above 400 degrees, requiring the use of a high temp handguard, usually an aluminum free float. Piston gun users are commonly reporting using a glove on the off hand because of it.


Well that's a "problem" you're creating for writing purposes. The REC 7 includes Daniel Defense rail covers (really made by Ergo Products, Moriarity, NM). They're made from a variety of santoprene, which is a high temperature thermoplastic. The Daniel Defense Picatinny rails are free floated above the piston and the santoprene covers give a good grip, cover the sharp rail edges, and insulate from any heat generated - non problem.

Reliability: No documented testing. It's expensive. Just marketing claims that are largely biased attempts to magnify the old rumors of gas residue jamming the DI action. That's significant because it IS rumor - the major cause of stoppages reported by the military and most professional users is magazines, ammo, and user incompetence - not gas residue. That will be exactly the same for a piston gun, too - there's no effective difference, they use the identical magazine, ammo, and shooter.

Whatever justifications you need to sleep at night. Me, as I said earlier, I get to read Barrett on the reciever when I pick up the gun if I look really closely at it.

Tilting carriers: the M16 was designed to use gas pressure to push the carrier straight back on its axis. It even uses that same pressure to counteract the case head pressing against the bolt face to help the lugs turn and unlock. When a piston design is adapted, it usually is attached at the gas key, which was never designed for the thrust. It's offset from the axis of the carrier, which does tilt it. Many piston gun makers now use specially designed carriers to compensate, with additional material added to the carrier to limit this tilt. In a purpose built gas piston gun, the bolt carrier rides on rails to control it - and it's not a problem. AR = no rails = modified carriers to reduce the tilt.

While that may be true of a number of piston rifles, I think if you saw the Barrett piston system, custom bolt / bolt carrier group, you find out that there is no such thing as carrier tilt in a REC 7. But, I also have that really cool gun case with the huge Barrett logo on it, and well...that just makes up for any shortcomings.

The three major "advantages" of a piston AR are mentioned over and over to help the makers SELL GUNS. It's about protecting your marketing position, and being different in a saturated market means putting out something more than another Me, Too! gun. Pistons are a modification of a gun that was designed to eliminate the op rod and it's disadvantages - losing the parts makes the gun simpler, more reliable, and has more design efficiency.

Somehow, I don't think Ronnie Barrett had any of that in mind when he developed the 6.8 SBC models for the operations group that approached him to develop it. I'm guessing, that Barrett wanted the most reliable operating gun he could make, and engineered it to do just that. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. In any event, I'm certainly not an expert in why Barrett chose a piston system or the motivations of every piston gun manufacturer. I'd suggest you contact Ronnie Barrett and argue with him about why he's wrong in designing the gun the way it has been done.

It's usually brought up and explained carefully in most DI vs Piston threads that the three claims of running cooler, cleaner, and more reliably aren't really substantiated. The actual point is to defend the selling of $400 more in parts and giving it the "Rolex" spin to justify what you get - a status symbol at the range. If someone has already drank the piston koolaid then changing their mind is long past accomplishing. Enjoy and have fun, just don't expect us to join in with the same relish. We'll be in the next lane outshooting you, skill counts for more when there's really no difference in the tools.

And that's what she told me.

Uh..huh. Sounds like a lot of projection on your part with no facts to back it up - just, what you "feel" are the reasons. Let me point out again, that I've already said, "I'm fickle." You've made no points that would deter me from buying a REC 7 again. It's a great rifle, I like the way it operates, and let me point out just one more time - it has that really cool case with the giant Barrett logo sewed on it....
 
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So really all it boils down to is all you really care about is that it says Barrett on the side of it? Yet were the Fanboys.:eek:

Reminds me of the day at the range when i out shot a guy with a Les Baer with my billy bob'd up Springer Mil-spec after he told me how much better his gun was.:cool:
 
I guess in my bias posts you missed the fact I said about this exact type of statement.

~2000 rounds out of an AR is barely even broken in yet... I don't even clean my filthy disgusting dirty DI system with only 2000 rounds through it.

Next you'll be telling us how often you change your underwear..no wait a minute ....I think that's just too much information.

I will say... Barrett makes amazing firearms and all the ones I ever shot were a joy to shoot. However I really wouldn't purchase a Piston rod type AR for already mentioned reasons.

And, I wouldn't limit myself in a purchase by lumping everthing thing into one size fits all categories without evaluting a product invidually, and without a biased viewpoint.

The H&K 416 is slightly different in that it does use rails in the receiver for the bolt to ride on, like Tirod mentioned about other gas piston designs.

Barrett elimates the carrier tilt another way.

I guess I see the point of some people buying piston guns... I have a bunch of old Sako rifles that are gorgeous.. but my modern Remington 700's out shoot them. I keep the Sako's in the safe and shoot/hunt with them on occasion because they are beautifully crafted tools, but when wanting to shoot any kind of serious groups.. I generally grab my 700 LTR or 6.8SPC 700 Tactical.

No, you really don't see the point. You're merely paying lip service to the idea that you've given it some kind of consideration, but wouldn't really choose one for any kind of "serious use."

Again, whatever self justifications you need to make so that you can sleep at night. I just don't think I'd want an AR that didn't come with a nifty black case with a huge manufacturer's logo on the side of it.
 
So really all it boils down to is all you really care about is that it says Barrett on the side of it? Yet were the Fanboys.

Reminds me of the day at the range when i out shot a guy with a Les Baer with my billy bob'd up Springer Mil-spec after he told me how much better his gun was.

Absolutely - let's get down to the really important stuff. After all, arguing whether it's DI or piston is about as useless, it just occupies people on the Internet with "being right" and has nothing to do with what happens in the field. Let me take the opportunity to tell you about the cool case it comes with that has the giant Barrett logo on the side of it...

Glad you and your Springer were so successful in one upping that nasty Baer owner showoff. I guess you've probably noted that in your diary as one of the best days of your life?
 
Personal attacks aren't necessary and will only get this thread closed.

My justification for choosing DI over Piston is simple. DI is 1/3 of the cost of a reputable brand piston, is just as efficient, easier to buy parts for, lighter, and in some extreme cases much more accurate. I don't discredit the fact that Piston setup might be better for suppressed use, but to act like it's never going to get dirty as so many piston lovers claim is just bluntly put false. For me spending 2500$ on a rifle that does the same job as a 900$ only too look at how much "cleaner" the carrier is and hold it, well it's just absurd. In the
"M4 myth" article on defense review he documented 2400rds running dry to stop his M4ergy from cycling another round. They will go further with lube. If having to clean a rifle every 2000rds is "too much" maintenance then i need to chunk a lot of my semi autos in every category.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpElVRqDak

4,500rds dirty and no failures...

That is my take on it. People like what they like. YMMV
 
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Kraigwy has the best grounds to argue, because he has probably abused an AR more than anyone on the internet.

I will opt in as well. I have put my AR through abuse for many years.

Here's a little story about my Daniel Defense M4:
I had a carbine course on a Saturday; the weather that day absolutely sucked. It was about 40 degrees and pouring down rain.
Our course was down in some pits. When the course started, it was just muddy down there; after about two more hours of rain, we in standing in about a foot of water.
The area behind the firing line where we loaded our mags, was slightly inclined, so it was in standing water, but it was nasty mud. Our mags, ammo, guns were all getting covered in sandy, muddy, wetness. My PMAGs were actually collecting water, so I had to occasionally turn them upside down to dump the water out of them.

Not once, after 200 rounds and 4 hours of running around in the mud, my AR never once jammed or malfunctioned, no matter how fast I pulled the trigger.

Need I say more?
 
Well lets see... Kraig has used the AR for combat as well as highly ranked competition.

I work with firearms every day of my life and making a living from them. You can come into where I work asking for your extremely over priced piston AR and yes I will make more money from selling you that gun.. but we keep an honest business and me and all my co-workers... 2 of which were former Green Berets of the 5th will tell the same thing when it comes to DI vs. Piston.

I get paid time and expenses to sit there on ranges and fire new products from a lot of very large manufactures, generally two to three times a year, to evaluate and give feed back on their firearms.

I would really like to know what qualifications you have that can speak over mine and Kraigs. I do give my Doctor medical advise, nor my lawyer legal advise.

I find it hard to understand why someone would spend X amount of more dollars to use proprietary parts that offer no real significant advantage. Yes Barrett makes a great product.. but things do wear out... they do break. When that happens I can get parts anywhere for a dime a dozen. Short of receivers I have all the parts laying around to build a few more guns because as we replace parts for customers who are customizing their AR's we offer them a discount if we can keep their parts that are in good working order that they are replacing. They are happy.. and I get all the parts I can dream of.

You can sit here and attack us all you want.. but I have yet to see you offer one valid point for spending the extra money on the Rec7 besides that you did. You're merely making yourself look childish. Ignorance is bliss as they say.
 
Personal attacks aren't necessary and will only get this thread closed.

I don't think anyone has made a personal attack on anyone else. Haven't read anyone calling someone else fat, ugly, stupid, etc.

My justification for choosing DI over Piston is simple. DI is 1/3 of the cost of a reputable brand piston, is just as efficient, easier to buy parts for, lighter, and in some extreme cases much more accurate.

Makes perfect sense for you and you're obviously happy with your choices based on your personal analysis/rationalizations for buying that particular product.

FYI you may want to discount whatever I say as I buy Ford products too and really like them, although I did sell my Ford tractor and bought a John Deere not too long ago. But only, and I mean ONLY because it has a quick interchange system on the front boom so I can use a bucket, forks, a rock bucket, etc. AND...this was a biggy...the hydraulic system has enough flow for a 3rd service on the back for a backhoe - but, I also use it quite a bit with a hydraulic top link and the angle adjustment on my Harley Rake.

Now, I don't want this to turn into another one of those Ford vs John Deere vs Kubota debates....it would only end up like the piston vs DI threads you find so often on gun forums...

I don't discredit the fact that Piston setup might be better for suppressed use, but to act like it's never going to get dirty as so many piston lovers claim is just bluntly put false. For me spending 2500$ on a rifle that does the same job as a 900$ only too look at how much "cleaner" the carrier is and hold it, well it's just absurd.

Well, now here's the part I don't quite agree with - I only paid $1770 out the door for the REC 7. I have not seen anyone who is a "lover" (whatever that may be) of a certain type of rifle make "absurd claims." Granted, I haven't read every thread on every forum devoted to the subject, so posts making the alleged absurd claim could certainly exist - I'm just against generalizations pulled in from wherever as a convenient means to attempt to discredit whatever product is being discussed.

I've certainly never made that sort of claim in any of my posts - I've said exactly why I own a piston gun, and it has nothing to do with cleanliness - although I have heard it is next to Godliness - and being such, I wouldn't totally discount it.

In the "M4 myth" article on defense review he documented 2400rds running dry to stop his M4ergy from cycling another round. They will go further with lube. If having to clean a rifle every 2000rds is "too much" maintenance then i need to chunk a lot of my semi autos in every category.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpElVRqDak

I have no idea what you're referencing - or the M4 myth. Is it a myth or legend? Either way I'm not sure I care about either myths or legends. I do, however, clean / lube all of my guns regularly so that I can carefully look at them and see if there are PM items that may need attention.

4,500rds dirty and no failures...

Okay...so....aaahh...good on you and your rifle. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make out of that but - okay!! Data point noted. Am I supposed to run the same amount through my gun and get back to you on this one ...or..?

That is my take on it. People like what they like. YMMV

Well, I never disagree with anyone who ends with the ever insightful YMMV. I mean, wow...that says it all. Your - Mileage - May - Vary...whew...that is true...you drive a Volt (it it's not burning) / I drive an F350 dually...mileage varies...noted.

Except...welll...one thing...and I don't mean to dwell on this...BUT - does your gun have a really cool black gun case with a huge manufacturer's logo on it? I don't think you've addressed that.
 
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