Pfc. Lynndie England pled guilty...

[buzz_knox]

Your comparing shooting several cruise missles at a so-called aspirin factory in the Sudan that was said to house a terrorists cell to the invasion of Iraq? Even using Professor Einstein's theory of the Ever Expanding Universe,that's a bit of a stretch. And what's especially humorous is your insight into the mind of Albert Gore if he were President.

You said that a Democrat would never have done something like this. Yet, we are presented with two cases of the most prominent Democrat using military strikes (i.e. killing people) for purely political purposes. It's not a stretch to imagine a situation where Clinton (or Gore, or Kerry) would have needed sufficient rehabilitation or diversion to justify an attack on Iraq (given that Clinton had a habit of doing that), especially after 9/11. And I really doubt the media or UN would have given nearly as much hassle in doing so.

As for the "aspirin" factory, I guess you didn't bother to learn that the "terrorist cell" intelligence was considered suspect, and Clinton was warned before the attack on the factory that it wasn't justified. That's why the United States paid damages to the factory owner.

By the way, if you're going to be a Dem mouthpiece, at least get the cover stories right. There was no suggestion of housing a "terrorist cell." Instead, the factory was supposed to have been manufacturing weapons of mass destruction (VX) for Bin Laden. Clinton later blamed the mistake on honest reliance on bad intel. Looks like the example is getting closer and closer. Except, Bush didn't say "today we invaded Iraq. And in other news, I did not have a relationship with that woman" as Clinton did.

I agree that it was a stretch to suggest knowledge of Gore's mind. He doesn't even know his mind; he just knows the fictions he makes up to make himself look better.

 

[TimRB]

"All this would have gone unnoticed, but for the Demosocialist press screaming from the rooftops, "Look what monsters our soldiers are!" - all in an effort to torpedo Bush's reelection bid."

I don't disagree with your assessment of the press and its motivation, but mostly it would have gone unnoticed if the soldiers involved had not been such morons that they photographed themselves doing illegal things.

Tim

 

[butch50]

These people are guilty of what is a very well known phenomenon in human behavior. Numerous scientific studies have shown that a significant percentage of jailers will tend towards egregious cruelty and barbarism if not kept within a well disciplined code of conduct. This is not new it goes back as far as human history, and is certainly not the least unusual. This is not to condem all jailers by any means, but probaly 50% or more will drift that direction. Does that let these specific individuals off the hook for these specific acts? No. But it most certainly does indict and condem the leadership for not having set up procedures to prevent these acts from being possible at all. I believe that incompetence of leadership is on display here, and that the incompetents should be replaced.

The only thing new under the sun is the history we haven't studied.

 

[Master Blaster]

You know I read that Sadaam's sadistic guards and even his sons liked to take pictures of the horrible tortures that visited upon political dissidents that they held in Abu Grahib. The files we liberated from the prison had lots of documentation of the torture that was carried out there including color photos. I'm sure those pictures would have sold lots of papers in the US, and if Al Jizzihra carried them perhaps changed the minds of a few folks in the middle east about how bad we are for invading poor Sadaam's country.


But unfortunately showing pictures of a man having his genitals slowly flayed off with a red hot electrical wire by Sadaams professional torture brigade, or a young girl dismembered by a lion after Sadaams son raped her, would have been against the interests of Al Jizzihira and Our own Loyal DEMOCRAP SOLCIALISTURD press, which was only interested in making Bush look bad and getting John Kerry and the Breck Girl elected.

So No pictures of what real torture looks like were published.

But maybe when Sadaam goes on trial we will get to see what real torture is if our press doesn't feel it would be culturally insensitive.

:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

 

[UT_Air_Assault]

Well they just took her guilty plea away from her.
I gotta say though, if that dirt-bag Graner is the father, that is going to be one ugly assed kid.
And to those of you who think this torture is okay because of what Saddam did, I ask you if Saddam is who we look to for guidance on the ethical treatment of people?

 

[MrBill]

I find it disgusting that any U.S. personnel is being prosecuted for this crap. Big deal...they "humiliated" a couple of no good, worthless humans. Remember what these people and thier ilk did. They will do it again. They should never have been taken prisoner. This stupid kid is guilty of only being stupid...and a kid. Never take photos..just evidence against you, don't make statements..just stupid of these guys to do it, but not criminal, certainly not warranting what they've gotten. Hope it all goes away somehow. I would buy them all a round of drinks.

 

[UT_Air_Assault]

Gee Bill.............. To bad the SS isn't hiring anymore. You'd make a great Concentration Camp staffer. With your uncanny ability to overlook people's humanity just because they don't look like you or go to your church, I think you'd go far. :barf:

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Mr. Bill, try explaining your position to my son who is coming home for his mid tour leave. He is a corpsman in an infantry company, and he and his buddies are doing their level damndest to make positive contact with the locals. This kind of treatment towards suspects needed to stop before it began.

Example: My son enters a home where a woman had cut herself badly, and cleaned and sutured the wound. The husband was very grateful to my son and interpreter, and gave them names of 4 insurgents and 3 crooked Iraqi policemen. THAT's how you get information!

Most of those people in the prison were not convicted of the thing-they were wanted for questioning, or were fingered by others. Leading a grown man around on a leash is not going to make him talk-forget about the dumber stuff.

If I had it in my power, those morons at the prison would have to walk point every single day for the rest of the war, except they are not fit to wear the uniform I wore or my sons and daughters wear. The true soldiers there deserve a whole lot more than the likes of England and the others.

 

[FallenPhoenix]

This is the United States Army, we should never be justifying things like this by saying "well they did something worse". I mean really, I used that excuse when I was 5 and it didn't even work then. I'm proud of our military and things like this only make me sad that people think it represents our soldiers.

 

[paratrooper]

About a year ago I had reason to look for a certain persons war trial and punishment . This person was in the German Air Force (Luftwaffe). I had to do some digging and came upon a lot of other trials and punishments . It has been reported that England could get 11 years . If you have the time and energy you might look at what certain Nazi guards had to do to deserve 11 years . This is an optional assignment .

 

[Big Ruger]

Wrong? yes. criminal? I dont think so, I'm tired of hearing about the poor nekkid prisoners with the bags on their heads. After all the last American prisoner I saw on tv didnt have a head anymore. E

 

[shootinstudent]

I'm weighing in with UT Air assault on this one.

Wrong: Yes.

Criminal: The military sure thinks so.

Bad for the war: Clearly so.


Why make excuses for people who are making life harder on the rest of the military in Iraq by running a sadist's shop? If you want to punish the beheaders, capture them, try them, and when convicted, execute the customary and lawful punishment. Making a Mistress Lyndie England photo album with a bunch of random prisoners does zero besides help Al Zarqawi fuel his propaganda machine.

 

[41special]

Hot Topic

Wow it's getting hot in here

To David,

England and the others who participated in this should be tried, and if convicted, should do hard time for conduct unbecoming

.

1. hard time is no longer done at ft. levenworth

2. conduct unbecoming a what ? a Private ?

Moving on :

Ask any WW2 vet what he thinks of this. I did. He said it was stupid and that's all. Nothing more or less. Definately nothing criminal.

The dumbest part of it all ? Pictures and the liberal media exploiting them.

In a past century we never would have known, they would be quietly punished, and we would all be better for it.

 

[UT_Air_Assault]

41: Yeah, you have a point. But your WWII vets where before the age of Satalite TV where Miss England & Co.'s amazing ability to craft foreign policy and American values was brodcast all over the world.

 

[shootinstudent]

41special,

I agree, they should've been quietly punished and life should go on.


But correct me if I'm wrong, not being in the military myself...is maltreatment of prisoners a crime under the UCMJ? If not, what were these folks convicted of?

 

[41special]

It's definately a UCMJ violation, here's a short list off the top of my head:

ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER
ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
ART. 93. CRUELTY AND MALTREATMENT
ART. 117. PROVOKING SPEECHES OR GESTURES
ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE

As far as following orders, every soldier has a duty to not follow orders that violate his/her moral set, or the laws governing such actions.

The command of this unit must have known about, and tolerated the actions.

Which dosent get her off the hook. You know the old 'if I tell you to jump off a bridge'

 

[shootinstudent]

41special,

Thanks for the info!

 

[41special]

David,

He is a corpsman in an infantry company

He's a Navy Corpsman attached to an Infantry Company ?

or a Combat Medic atteched to an Infantry Company ?

Nonetheless I'd expect him to do nothing but attempt relations with locals. It is the nature of his craft, to help people.

It is not the nature of all of our crafts however.

That's why this forum is as it is, two opinions 180 Degress apart.

try explaining your position

Maybe you could explain the rationale in patching up wounded terrorist our soldiers die trying to kill.

If I had it in my power, those morons at the prison would have to walk point every single day for the rest of the war

I'm sure they would volunteer to walk point.

Their actions were a mark of cruetly not neccessarily cowardness.

I personally have, and will continue to take any oppurtinity to get into 'indian country' (that's feet in the sand for civilians) that I can, for one reason and one alone. To Win and right the wrongs.

 

[IZHUMINTER]

41 Special

1. hard time is no longer done at ft. levenworth

Really? Since when did the USDB turn into a playground? Just because the Castle closed doesn't mean that a sentence there is suddenly other than "hard time."

The command of this unit must have known about, and tolerated the actions.

Where does everyone keep getting this? "Someone had to know" and thus "it had to have been approved."

The ratio of US troops to Iraqi citizens is about the same as cops to New York City residents. Does Mayor Bloomberg know which one of his cops work nights breaking knees for the Mob? How about the Chief of Police? Internal Affairs? Their Captain? The answer is probably none of the above. It's criminal behavior, and as such the participants hide it. Should someone be able to spot it? Maybe...and if so, they should raise the alarm. But if they don't, how can we hold their superiors, people who have no direct knowledge of the problem, responsible for such conduct?

Because there is no evidence supporting the vast conspiracy by President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld to "torture" Iraqi prisoners, I contend that this was the work of a handful of sadistic bastards motivated only by their own pleasure in making others suffer. That said, I do believe that it is possible that more supervision or unannounced inspections could have caught these sickos in the act. There were breakdowns in the chain and acts of indiscipline even before the unit got to Abu Ghraib.

Reading the Taguba report gives you a clear idea of just how jacked up the 800th MP Brigade and its subordinate elements were. The Army expects that Brigade Commanders, especially when they are one-star generals, to have some idea WTF they are doing. COL (formerly BG) Janis Karpinski obviously didn't. According to the Taguba report, she routinely signed off on reports without reviewing them (including facility inspection reports), misallocated her assigned battalions (manning Abu Ghraib with a unit that already had prisoner abuse problems while putting a better manned and better disciplined unit at a smaller facility) and failed to relieve or reassign incompetent or negligent subordinates. If there was any one person who could be seen as responsible for the conditions at Abu Ghraib, it is her. But even so, she was not responsible for the abuse.

All the commanders who could reasonably be seen as directly responsible for allowing the abuse to take place were relieved (and most have also received administrative punishments). This includes CPT Reese, LTC Phillabaum, and COL Karpinski, the three MP commanders in the guard's chain. Especially with all the media scrutiny, if there had been any evidence that they encouraged abuse, or sanctioned it or even simply failed to report it, there would have been public outcry and filing of charges. Instead, all they are guilty of is failing to uncover abuse that they had no reason to expect was taking place.

 

[41special]

IZHUMINTER

Now as far as 'hard time' at USDB no longer being hard time, I was refering to the stigma that most have, that 'hard labor' (making big rocks into little rocks) still exist a Ft. Levenworth, which it does not.

As far my comment to the effect of the Command must have known

Here's the whole post :

The command of this unit must have known about, and tolerated the actions.

Which dosent get her off the hook. You know the old 'if I tell you to jump off a bridge'

I may have more correctly said it as her NCO Support Channel, had to have known and therefore tolerated it. Not 'approved it' as you put it.

And as I go on to explain, the lack of Leadership is no excuse for her.

Just as Ignorance on the part of her command is no excuse for them.

Commanders are not responsible for the actions of their soldiers, but they are ACCOUNTABLE.

I can see from your location you might remember this quote

There are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders