Pfc. Lynndie England pled guilty...

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I know I'm wasting my breath here, but.................Does anyone here consider the larger ramifications of this inncident towards our ability to "win hearts and minds" in the middle east. To them, the face of American occupation of Iraq is England's chubby face, instead of all the good that Americans are doing overthere. Al Jazeera is like any other news organization and is going to report what sells, i.e.- Controversy (By the way their actually pretty moderate, here's their English website http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage). Thus this has been plastered all over the Middle East making our job that much tougher.
The fact that so many on here think this is a good thing, makes me even more happy that instead of re-joining the NRA, I gave that money to the ACLU. The fact that so many of you believe that might makes right, is truely horrifying. :barf:
 
I think it is extremely unlikely that the command element was detached from what has been happening. But it is the interface with the civilians involved where it apparently branches out of the military and enters the realm of government.

The other aspect is a reflection of all levels involved; one shouldn't need a Geneva Convention or "training" to feel some revulsion at the idea of comitting sexually or other perverted and violent acts against people. No matter what their alleged crimes are. Human beings have consciences which are usually quite effective - unless they are desensitized and numbed.
 
UT: "GIGEM!!!!"

That being said, our ability to win hearts and minds was damaged beyond repair when in 1991, we sat back and watched Sadam's troops roll into Nasyria and begin a murder and genocide spree that took the lives of over 300,000 in and around that town.

The reason I don't believe that any of these Privates were the brains behind this is that I've heard that photos were used to bribe these Arab men into becoming informants. Tell us the information we want to hear or we'll show these pictures around your neighborhood of you being dominated by a woman. In a macho culture that makes Latino macho culture look almost feminine, it would appear that this would be worse than death.

Such a good technique for getting information was not the idea of a bunch of West Virginia bumpkins whose highest aspirations were to work at the local prison. I don't believe they understood the Arab culture enough to figure it out. I believe that some controlled deeds eventually led to the breakdown of all order and discipline and they continued to have fun with it. War makes you bored. If the worst torture you engage in is making inmates watch you make whoopee with your boyfriend, then I guess I'd want to give her an article 15 and reduction, not prison. All things told- what was happening there was a whole lot better than what was happeing three months before we captured the prison. It was not so much a breakdown of discipline as a controlled process IMO.

When your attorney says to just fess up and take responsibility in lieu of an extra decade in prison, you'll fess up.
 
Such a good technique for getting information was not the idea of a bunch of West Virginia bumpkins whose highest aspirations were to work at the local prison.

Most of the alleged behavior by the prison guards was just vicious and/or retarded, not anything resembling directed intelligence gathering. In fact, nobody has presented any evidence that any member of any intelligence agency had anything to do with what went on. The fact that we have a bunch of inbred morons passing around photos of what they were doing for fun is a pretty big hint that intelligence agencies weren't involved in what is going on. Not because it was unethical, but becuase it was just too goddamn stupid.

Look, there are lots of methods of extracting information from potential sources that are borderline-illegal or outright prohibited. And I'm sure we are using lots of them. None of them, however, involve stupid rednecks, a polariod camera, and ass-play.

I think the chain of command should be court martialed for dereliction of duty. But I don't buy it that this was some directed intel-gathering effort. Maybe I slept through the part of CI class involving Deliverance re-enactments? :rolleyes:
 
Look, there are lots of methods of extracting information from potential sources that are borderline-illegal or outright prohibited. And I'm sure we are using lots of them. None of them, however, involve stupid rednecks, a polariod camera, and ass-play.

OK- so you have a point. A funny point at that. It sounds like something my father would be saying to me after he got a call from my principal!

Leadership should be involved in all of this and not some staff Sergeant. Where were the Officers who were overseeing operations at this joint? Even if it was "ass play" as you said- there was entirely too much of it going on not to be noticed before it was.

What ever happened to opsec? When I was in the PGW, we had our mail scanned for breeches of security. How'd these pics get out? A whole breakdown of the COC occurred here, not just a few bumpkins. Besides, I still believe that you can extract a lot of information from informants in an ongoing process by using violation of cultural taboos against them. I haven't been to school to learn that, I have no certifications. In my deviant mind, it is easy to extract information like that.

It is perhaps why the Soviets would use prostitutes against espionage targets in the U.S. When the target was shown pics of him with another woman or worse- with another man, the target would be quite compliant in providing information. It isn't so farfetched. It could be a case of hillbilly grabass or it could be a directed process that went too far when the professionals weren't supervising.
 
KJM: I faintly recall Nov 26th, 2005. I something at Memorial stadium with a bunch of cheering & scoring by guys wearing Burnt Orange & White...........I think it was a football game. Some HS from Closet Station, I think came here to Austin and tried to play against us. I think. Can you help me remember? :confused:

It's pretty obvious that this wasn't going on in a vacum. There is more complicity in this than just these dirt-bags and sadly they are the only ones being punished.
 
Leadership should be involved in all of this and not some staff Sergeant.
Interesting point, but the problem of too many hats comes into play. I worked the night shift most of the time at my interrogation/detainment facility. In one year, the MI battalion commander visited at night twice. The S3 visited twice (same time as the BC). The battalion sergeant major visited only during the day. Originally, our facility belonged to HHC, but the HHC commander and first sergeant never visited at night. The MP commander never visited. We became a provisional MP/MI company six months into the deployment. The company commander visited less than ten times in six months at night. The first sergeant visited almost every night, but always before or around midnight. So, the two people in charge of the facility were myself and the MP night shift squad leader, both staff sergeants. Everybody who should have been checking up on us was too busy doing other things to do it often. However, leaving a shift in the hands of a staff sergeant is supposed to mean that it will run smoothly with a 99% success rate. I think the AG leadership assumed that it was running smoothly and didn't bother checking, because with a staff sergeant in charge, it should have. They didn't realize that the staff sergeant in question was a sick individual who would get his rocks off on beating prisoners and would subvert his troops into doing the same, with great success in twisting Graner around. So great, in fact, that Graner would be described as the "ringleader".

So how high up should this go? One would need a copy of their chain of command to determine that, since I don't know how many levels there were between the SSG and BG Karpinski. On the interrogator side of the house, the same problem exists: How close were COL Pappas and LTC Jordan to the interrogators that were listed in the intelligence review, especially the civilian ones? Was LTC Jordan calling the shots when it came to the day-to-day interrogation operations, i.e. assigning interrogators, suggesting approaches, and personally supervising interrogations? Probably not, but none of us know for sure. I think a suitable punishment would be jail for those directly involved in actual criminal behavior or with unreported first-hand knowledge in the case of supervisors; dismissal from service and fines equal to the amount of pay they earned in Iraq for the next supervisor, both officer and NCO; dismissal from service for the next higher echelon; and administrative reprimand for the next higher. People keep saying that SECDEF Rumsfeld or LTG Sanchez should be doing time for these incidents. I don't think either had "visit the Abu G night shift and check for human rights violations" on their daily to-do list. If either fall within the echelons I listed above, levy the appropriate punishment, but if not, get off their backs. They did the job the best they could with the troops that they were given. It's not their fault that they couldn't be everywhere at once.

I've heard that photos were used to bribe these Arab men into becoming informants.
I was going to make a point here, but it would probably violate methods and sources. But as a trained human intelligence collector, I can tell you that your statement is wrong.
 
Consider this

IMO, what England and her cohorts did was stupid and they should not have done it, ordered to or not.

Also IMO, this was a case of the brass crucifying junior enlisteds to save their own careers.

All this would have gone unnoticed, but for the Demosocialist press screaming from the rooftops, "Look what monsters our soldiers are!" - all in an effort to torpedo Bush's reelection bid. If there had been a Democrat sitting in the White House, it would have been swept under the rug by the press; you can take that to the bank, IMO.

Also, consider this: Under the "Patriot Act II," American citizens can be treated like the prisoners were treated by England and her pals - by our own government.

Anyone else see a problem here??
 
Also, consider this: Under the "Patriot Act II," American citizens can be treated like the prisoners were treated by England and her pals - by our own government.

Prove it. Show us a citation that allows citizens to be incarcerated, sodomized, stripped naked, etc.
 
All this would have gone unnoticed, but for the Demosocialist press screaming from the rooftops, "Look what monsters our soldiers are!" - all in an effort to torpedo Bush's reelection bid. If there had been a Democrat sitting in the White House, it would have been swept under the rug by the press; you can take that to the bank, IMO.


First of all. If there was a democrat in the White House during this time there would not of been a invasion of Iraq in the first place. Especially one that was based on totally false and misleading information;if not outright lies. And you can take that to the bank.
 
1. England and the others who participated in this should be tried, and if convicted, should do hard time for conduct unbecoming.

2. The OIC should be tried, and if convicted, should be charged with dereliction of duty and conduct unbecoming. If it can be shown for people above the OIC, then smoke em too.

As I understand it, these people were primarily held for questioning, and not anything they were caught doing. That makes them suspects, not criminals.

What England and the others did was not right. It did not extract any information out of these people, and sure didn't help out the men and women in the field trying to make good connections with the civilians. Al Jeezera has a field day...........
 
KJM: I faintly recall Nov 26th, 2005. I something at Memorial stadium with a bunch of cheering & scoring by guys wearing Burnt Orange & White..

Wow! You mean you have next season's scores already?!!! I need to get one of those T-sip time machine thingies. I did know about the 2004 loss though. That's because our secret scoring weapon is still in the seventh grade!

As for Abu G. I don't know everything that went on. I don't even know squat about M.I. except that I was peripherally involved in one for seven months. I might be wrong about intelligence gathering, so I'll defer to IZ on this one. It just seems odd that there could be so little supervision. That in itself is a problem with the COC.

Good lord- I was a Sergeant before I could go potty w/o asking somebody and only in designated areas!
 
First of all. If there was a democrat in the White House during this time there would not of been a invasion of Iraq in the first place.And especially one that was based on totally false and misleading information. And you can take that to the bank.

Depends on what the Democrat got caught doing. Clinton launched cruise missile strikes (including against a target which couldn't be confirmed as a legitimate target) to distract from Lewinsky's testimony, and then launched an air campaign against Iraq to delay the impeachment proceedings. Seems like if Gore had gotten in and had to make his military bones/get out of trouble, he might have gone with the common wisdom of the time and taken out Hussein . . . assuming he wasn't getting part of the oil for food kickbacks.
 
Your comparing shooting several cruise missles at a so-called aspirin factory in the Sudan that was said to house a terrorists cell to the invasion of Iraq? Even using Professor Einstein's theory of the Ever Expanding Universe,that's a bit of a stretch. And what's especially humorous is your insight into the mind of Albert Gore if he were President.
 
kjm: Ooops on the date. My bad. Shouldn't be spending so much time with these pretty co-eds. Makes me lose track of time..............Do ya'll have those in Closet Station or are the sheep stories true?

The reporting of this incident would of happened regarless of who happened to reside in the White House at the moment. American soldiers commiting crimes gathers attention and sells papers.
Why? Becasue its so rare. We are the best trained & most professional fighting force in the world. This was an isolated incident and it needs to be severely punished so that it doesn't happen again. Thank god that the Spec-4 who reported it had the guts to stand up.
As for all you conspiracy theorists about it being some left-wing "get Bush" lynch-mob: Let's face it, Mr. Bush does a good enough job on his own in screwing things up and doesn't need alot of help. Or did Dan Rather, Peter Jennings & Tom Brokaw all go to Iraq right before the invasion and go personally hide the "stockpiles" of WMDs just to get Mr. Bush?
 
Whew! What a lot of verbiage here. I thought what the American soldiers did at Abu Ghraib was wrong (You remember when your folks taught you which behaviors were Right and which were Wrong?).

That said, I sincerely hope the Patriot Act doesn't give my own government the right to make me wear a Speedo and crawl on my knees with a pair of underwear on my head. I haven't done that since college.
 
UT: It's OK about the date. They teach that in Grad school over in Austin. We get to tour the sheep pasture in our senior year, until then, we have to make due with whatever shows up from Austin.

This whole topic makes me pine for the days of working in the jail so I can make prisoners wear panties on their heads.
 
So how high up should this go?

Simple. As high as someone knew what was going on. Anyone placed in charge of the prison and didn't know it was going on, should face chatever the equivalent of a 'failed to do their job' is.

My problem with the media in this is calling it horrible torture. Was it wrong? Absolutely. Is it torture? Maybe, maybe not. Was it by any means as bad as westerners that fall into their hands? Nope. When the enemies trial gets equal media attention as this, then I can call them balanced intheir iews.

Heck, I doubt that Saddam's trial will get this much attention.
 
Jeffnvk: Dereliction of duty is the charge I think you're looking for. I was thinking the same thing too. Surely some captain was in charge of something and can be nailed back down to 2nd Lt.
 
Surely some captain was in charge of something and can be nailed back down to 2nd Lt.


A female National Guard general was relieved of her command of the prision several weeks after the story broke. She said in her defense,the part of the prision where the majority of the abuses were taking place was off-limits to her, even thou she was the OIC. This was under the direct orders of her superior officer General Henry Gonzales. Who was following the orders of his superior officer General Richard Myers. Basically, the CIA was running the show at the prision with the approval of the DOD. Orders from the DOD came down to the pentagon to soften up prisoners using any means necessary. So the prisoners would provide the necessary additional information that was badly needed at the time by field commanders when conventional methods of integration were proving fruitless. I'm sure there are some of you who will continue to think that PFC England,her boyfriend and several others are responsable for all of this. Because, that's just what the Bush administation wants you to think.
 
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