perspective from a criminal defense lawyer...

CDFT - While I respect your opinion, and have heard much the same from court counselors, and social workers, hasn't that approach failed miserably?

The great society, social engineering of the late 60's and 70's, has created the situations that exist today. God, or the belief in a higher power, morality, and personal responsibility, have been removed from, or denegrated by the government and "educators". Concern with self, and immediate gratification is the prime directive.

The break down of the family unit, no fathers, only sperm donors, is the rule, not the exception.

The system owes you, and will provide, is taken as a given, no, demanded by those who consider themselves "deprived".

While I am the first to acknowlege that I'm jaded and cynical, I feel I have good reason to be. Locking up third generations of felons, from the same families, or same bloodlines anyway, makes you look at things differently.

There is more work for me, than you can imagine. The papers don't report 1/10th of what crime is commited. The violent crimes, are getting more heinous every day. I cannot recall the last defendant to express any remorse. Of course at the urging of their defense attorney's at sentencing, they all mumble the obligatory, "I'm sorry" to the victims. Colder than charity, and I notice it falls on increasingly deaf ears.

In conclusion, I have no idea, or easy answer for what the solution might be. I do know that locking them up, without early release, or probation appears to be working. In NC all sentences are "day for day", so the time you catch, is what you serve. The habitual felon enhancement helps alot, giving long sentences, for three time losers. It serves as a warning to fellow travelers, when they see the defendant go away, and not return to continue the career path. We'll quit when they do. YMMV. Regards 18DAI.
 
You can be an atheist and have a strong sense of morality...

Though I believe you're right to point to the culture that pervades the ghetto. If you could find a way of breaking the cycle of children being left effectively un-raised (whether they truly are un-raised, or merely raised by somebody who thinks crime is a good lifestyle) then you'd be going a long way towards solving your violent crime situation.

And I do think that sentencing needs to be harsher on the non-repentant severe offenders (get in an argument with somebody and get in a fight? Whatever. Knock off a gas station? That's bad.) as gauged by whether they repeat when they get out. Really it should be two strikes and you're out since you're showing that you're just not willing to obey the social contract at that point.

So, in summary, I advocate more working with underpriviliged youth, harsher sentencing for repeat offenders, and work gangs (prisons don't pay for themselves, and maybe, just maybe it will make somebody think "if they're just going to make me work, I may as well get a paycheck for it," though I'm not counting on it).
 
I realize this idea will never go anywhere because it would the legal industry too much money, but allowing the use of deadly force in defense of property as well as life and limb would be a big help. To the bleeding hearts who get their knickers in a knot over "human" life being worth more than any property, I point out that criminals have negative value to society. Also it would send the criminal class the message that the law for which they have nothing but contempt will not protect them. In closing, the recidivism rate for dead dirtbags is absolute zero.
 
You know there was a time when I thought all these different things were responsible for society’s ills. I have recently started to rethink that. What we are seeing is a cycle that feeds on itself and frankly I don’t think it can be stopped. That being said I think one of the biggest culprits if not the biggest is the media. Here is the way it works. The media ( I use the term collectively) pumps out all this stuff by way of movies and TV. It is packaged in a verity of looks and feels. It comes into your home everyday 7 days a week 365 days a year and if you are one of those who “don’t watch TV’ you can rest assured that most of the people you know do watch TV. So you are getting this continuous stream that is describing the world to you, telling you what it looks like, what it all means and how it works. It does this through an endless barrage of images, sounds, and emotion laden scenarios. Everybody you know is getting the same picture of the world so when you discuss with your friends the world around you, low and behold you find that by and large the world looks very much the same to everybody. That’s not an accident, at least not entirely. Most people never really wake up to just how much power the media actually has to shape our society and our world. If they did it would be a terrifying awakening.

Frankly I think we are in big, big trouble and as yet haven’t identified the true threat to our country and our culture much less figured out what to do about it. And frankly I have my doubts that anyone who can do anything about it is going to in time to be of any use.
 
Underpriviliged?

To define someone as "underpriviliged" is to infer that others are "privileged". With all due respect, that is so much BS. In this country only your own lack of effort will limit what you can accomplish.

Whining about how some people are "underpriviliged" is one of the contributors to the problems that we face - mostly the result of failing to take responsibility for our own actions.

Do the crime? Then do the time!! Plea bargains should be stopped and sentences should mean what they say.

Sit in a court room once in a while and spend some time reading the case files documenting what some of these animals do and you will soon realize that good intentions end up getting you face down in the gutter.

18DAI, I like your style! Obviously I agree with what you have stated and it is not from watching TV. I deal with this mess every day.

John
Charlotte, NC
 
18DAI:
I don't think you are jaded or cynical.
I think your eyes are wide open, and I think you hit the nail squarely on the head.

Keep up the good work.
 
No, underpriviliges implies that they enjoy too few of the priviliges that an average person does. In the case of a child (who cannot help who their parents are or what their parents are like) these can be simple priviliges like food, love, support, moral instruction, and life guidance.

To blame the children for the sins of their parents is akin to blaming the Luger for being used by the Germans in two world wars.

The adults are likely too far gone, but the children are still receptive. Or do you think it's more macho to punish violent crime than to prevent it?
 
Like other cops who get to see it up close, it's not surprising to me when a kid from a rotten home turns out bad. The environment that they are raised in sets the moral tone and defines the behavior that their part of society accepts. I'm now on my second generation of some families, having put fathers, then years later, the son's in jail. No it's not surprising.

What does amaze me are the kids who are raised under the same or similiar circumstances that rise above their beginings. We've spent countless time and money figuring out why kids turn out bad. Someone smarter than me needs to figure out why kids with no chance and no positive family influence overcome the odds.

Yeah, I still try to talk some sense to them sometimes. But you know what? My fifteen minutes isn't much compared to the 15-18 years they've already lived.
 
The demographics of crime don't reflect the socio-economic demographics of America. You have to dig just a little deeper than that. Hint: It's a cultural (or lack of culture) "thang." Look to the Democrat voter base for the answers.
 
Well, Right up my alley. I've got a JD I only used for a year as an intern for the SFDA's office. I got to see a wide variety of criminals, and, we had a few moved to federal court.

I've also been a teacher, on and off, since 1999, mainly in special education, dealing with the folks that end up in the system. Here's my two cents.

The kids that get out, and make it, are about 100% religious, and, needless to say, from religious parent/s. Our school system pretty much denies the effect, and benefits of religion, and, we are reaping the result of those policies.

The schools run on a system similar to the prisons: the biggest and strongest are dominant, and, barring gangs, enforce their will by threat, or use, of force. Between the ages of 6th grade, and, 18, kids have an open season for crime, where they get slapped on the wrist, and, their records sealed. If you want an example of this, just follow me into Oakland, Berkeley, or Richmond, and watch some basketball games, and, I promise you, you will see a shining example of this sort of survival of the fitest society at work.
The special education system which was designed to help kids, is circumvented by administrators, and, education, at least in our area, and, is top heavy, salary wise. San Francisco is the poorest paying big city in Kali for teachers, yet the superintendent quit a year early, to take a job in the midwest, and was paid 550,000 dollars in a severance package. IIRC, it was 400k for severance, and 150k for selling back her lifetime health insurance to the city.:rolleyes:

The influx of illegals has created a tremendous strain on the public school system in Kali. Most of these children end up in special ed, or lost in the public system. The resources are not avaliable to teach them properly, to busy paying 400k packages to administrators that quit their job, without out doing it.
Most need intensive English, and, that requires a ratio of about 1 to 5, with aide and teacher for 10-12, to be effective.

The system has moved a LOT of college material, in math in particular, into high school, and, even into grade school.
The result is the kids face more difficult tests, and materials then we had, have less time to master them, and
are graded earlier, into being failures. If you can't pass the High School Exit Exam, which now has statistics, and Calculus on it, you don't graduate from High School. In other words, our public education system is creating a cast system, stratifying society, which, will in the end, destroy the middle class, create a huge lower, dangerous class, and, prime the country for either a police state, or a revolution.

San Francisco has open enrollment, which means any child may go to any school, depending upon a lottery(however, if you know the SF system, everything is corrupt, and, I'm sure with legal pressure, you can get your child to what ever school you want).

SF has over 50 gangs, mainly a gang for each public housing project, plus the Asian gangs, etc. I had a gang member diagram the gangs, and it took the entire front chalkboard, about 50 feet wide, and about 8 feet high.
(local policeman came in, and started scribbling and copying madly;-) Many children face crossing 4-7 gangs territories on the way to school, on the bus. Just imagine having to be on combat alert, coming to school, leaving school, and at lunch, and you start to get the reason they quit coming, or, when they get to school, are too stressed to learn.
Mt. Diablo High School in Concord is similar, with a gauntlet of gang cars running around, after school, as the kids try and walk to BART(Bay Area Rapid Transit).

The irony of this is that while the kids lives are in constant threat, SF voted to ban all ownership of handguns by residents.:eek: They really are in LaLa land, unaware of what is right down the street, and, the experience of their children.

What it really comes down to is numbers. The poor are procreating, inspired by a welfare system that pays them well, or has in the past, to do so. They are a poor tax base, and, therefore, their schools are poor, and they get an education that isn't so good. Even if the money WAS there, as I explained to my kids: I can give you an intense hour and a half of e
English, but, if the minute you go out the door, you go back to Spanish, that means you are using
another language 22.5 hours a day, and, chances are real good you aren't going to pick up English.

From the top end, we have administrators, and lawyers, writing laws, like No Child Left Behind, that make accomplishing the goals impossible, and, refuse to accept that what worked for them is not for everyone. Somewhere in the system has to be the recognition that some people are not going to be 4.0 students, and, that just because they are not, it doesn't make them F students.

What we've done is told these folks they can't make it in our society, so, they have made it, just illegally. I've been privy to the multi-law enforcement meeting in San Diego in 2000, concerning gangs, and, all those kids we have flushed out of the system have made it, for awhile anyway, importing drugs, etc. We currently have a MASSIVE group
of very strong gangs that are REALLY scary, and, meanwhile, while telling the world it's our biggest problem, Diane Fienstien is the only one with a CCW, making sure none of the rest of us can defend ourselves, and working actively to make sure the Second Amendment is taken out of the Constitution.

As a teacher, I'm at a crossroads right now. I've taken many assignments, and, many have been impossible, unless you like working 20 hours a day, and, even then, some just aren't doable. When you have to schedule meetings, Individual Education Program meetings, with administrators, psych folk, probation people, translators, parents that don't show up, and Lord only knows who else, and, you can't get the parent/s to show up, or make the meeting, and, you have 24 kids like that to do, the logistics of just doing the IEP's is enough to make you quit, much less actually trying to teach 4 subjects, to 3 grades, with classes up to 24, and, half of the students in each class can't read(this was my last middle school job), in a building my doctor was convinced was filled with mold.

Real, quick solutions are to change the system. The common law had it right, with 14 being the age of majority, and, at that age, you should be responsible for
your actions. 7-14 we need to try major crimes as adults.
WHY? If the gang bangers can't use 14-18 year olds to do crimes, they are going to go younger.

Also, accept everyone isn't going to college, and along a Euro model, provide trade training in high school.

Dumb down the text books and materials, back to the level we had as kids. Being able to do the work, and, get a decent grade, in a reasonable amount of time, provides for a balanced life style. Currently, the teaching materials are being dictated by the top 2% of the society, the facist-liberals, who insist that what worked for them, being
full time, facist studying monsters, should be the deprived life style that all students should have. I was a 99.8% SAT/ACT 3.5 gpa high school student. However, my female contemporaries, who didn't play sports, and did nothing but study, are now administrators, and run our schools. They did NOT have balanced lives, since, at that time, female sports were not avaliable, or encouraged. This group has designed, and painted us into this corner. In great part, this was due to education being the only avenue for intelligent women to go into at the time.

And, this is the last bit of my rant:
My Mexican kids HAD balanced lives . They were at the bottom of their class, but, they played sports, they went to soccer games, they have great social groups, they worked in their families businesses and had money the other kids didn't. They took off December and January, and spent two months in Mexico, playing in the warm sand, and enjoying the ocean. They came to school a month late, for the same reason. THEY HAVE FUN, AND ENJOY LIFE. That joy of life, we are driving out of our society, with taxes, and absurd standards for students.

Maybe the Mexicans have it right. Come here, work for 6 months, make enough money to live like a king in Mexico for the other 6 months, and, don't pay taxes here, because the income is too low.

Finally: PAY TEACHERS MORE, SO YOU CAN MAKE A DECENT LIVING. Math teachers qualifications, for Kali schools, pretty much insure they can make 80 grand, starting, in private business. Why teach math?
I bowl with a retired LEO, and his son, soon to be LEO. Why? They figure the pay is far better then teaching, and, they know what they face, and would much rather be able to carry a gun, and, have their own 'blue' gang...
S
PS
I'm at a real crossroads right now, wondering what to do...
 
I'm at a real crossroads right now, wondering what to do...

Consider your own advice: (I'm using quotation marks, but this is probably a paraphrase.) "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool. However, he who knows and knows not that he knows is the greatest fool of all."

Sound familiar? :)
 
ROFL:

I may have to get the Dialogues out, and find that one.
Sophistry at it's best, none could match Socrates...

S;)

PS
Now, I have to go into another bad area of Oakland, and ref a couple basketball games. See you later, I hope.

Between Richmond, and Oakland, and Berkeley, I figure they have to be at the top of the FBI percentage wise, for violent crime...
 
Straw Man

Yes, CDFT, you are absolutely right - I don't care one whit about the 16 year old who robs, rapes and murders his 80 year old neighbor. I don't care that he was "underprivileged" or that he never had a $150 pair of Nikes or that he was traumatized on Father's Day because he didn't know who his daddy was.

I care about the victims! That person forgotten by the lawyers and their law school buddies, the judges. I care about the Rebecca Thompsons of the world and the Pamela Powers and all the other innocent people who suffer and die at the hands of some "poor underpriviliged" and "misunderstood" person.

If "children" do adult crimes then punish them as fitting to the crime they committed. I repeat, if you do the crime, then you do the time!

Probably keeps me off jury duty, don't you think?

John
Charlotte, NC where our daily paper just headlined, "14 year old charged with murder"
 
The kids that get out, and make it, are about 100% religious, and, needless to say, from religious parent/s. Our school system pretty much denies the effect, and benefits of religion, and, we are reaping the result of those policies.

So they don't have Church and Sunday school in your area? A schools job should to be to educate the kids not give them religious indoctrination.

Are you stating that an individual is not allowed to pray silently over his meal or at other times and not allowed or read a his or her own bible during breaks?

Its the parents job to handle the kids religious teachings.

I think the problems go deeper than just not being religious. I don't think running a bible school camp and revival in the schools would solve the problems.

If anybody believes that educational systems have been equal in all parts of this nation they are mistaken. The other half of the problem is parenting.

I wonder what a young kid who lives in a ghetto thinks when he sees the hard working folks barely getting by. Then he sees the drug dealer with the flashy cars and things flush with cash? wonder what he wants to be when he grows up?

You take drug dealers, gangs, poverty and economic blight and roll them up and that makes for a pretty toxic environment for a kid to grow up in.
 
Eghad, the schools are doing all kinds of indoctrination, just not religous.

I can tell you from experience, what they think of, "hard working folks barely getting by", they refer to them as "Suckers". Work, laws, respect for others, respect for females, "all of that is for chumps" according to the urban youths I speak with. Not all the youths I deal with are suspects, or defendants either.

The roll model, or hero if you will, IS the drug dealer, and the drug dealers turned rap stars. Why? Because they are leading a "Gangsta" life style. Cars, cash, and Ho's, those are the values. It's quite possible that these "values", are intensified by what you term a "toxic" environment. What then of the middle class, white males from suburbia, who act, dress, and share the same values? Minority youths, while making up the great majority of what I see, are by no means the only young men with these distorted values.

I agree that parents need to do some parenting, and realize that schools and courts will not raise their children for them. I know there are good teachers, however some of the "educators" (I've been corrected by them more than once for referring to them as teachers) I come in contact with locally, have a very bizarre view of reality and education. I blame school systems and school administrators for many of the ills, and problems. The administrators locally, will not allow suspension of minority children, only whites. What message does that convey? Teachers who do, are hazed, or openly disciplined. The PC crap they have pushed on society, is coming home to roost, with increased violence being perpetrated on the teachers themselves. Discipline is not permitted, and we wonder why the "students", drop out and turn to crime. Another poster was on the money when he called it a vicious circle. It is getting more vicious daily, and I see no end in sight. YMMV. Regards 18DAI.
 
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The writing is on the wall for those who can read.
The King (wasn't it Nebuchadnezzar?) could read... but only Daniel could tell him what it meant...

I don't think the people care enough to "not stand for it"...
Hell, we can't even get our elected representatives to care enough... :rolleyes:
 
Hi rmt22. I make a living, helping send your clients on long, state sponsored vacations to the Graybar. Not to seem insensitive, but I couldn't care less what their problems are, or why, they do what they do. "socio-economically challenged" ? Exactly whose fault is that? The vast sums of "community outreach" money, would be better spent, building more large prisons, IMHO of course. YMMV. Regards 18DAI.


I couldn't agree with you more.Except for the build more prisons part.This country need to take a lesson from country's such as Singapore where they don't have many repeat offenders.
 
The vast sums of "community outreach" money, would be better spent, building more large prisons, IMHO of course.

A freind of mine posed a theory in regards to prison overcrowding that I had never thought of.

Problem: prison overcrowding

Solution: build more and bigger prisons.

Now, you have lots of empty cells and you need to fill them because empty cells are tax money gone to waste. You have locked up all the really bad criminals and still have open cells. You need to fill these cells, so now increasingly minor offences are awarded with jail time. how long before jaywalking lands you in the can?

Just his theory, but might have a kernel of truth.
 
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