Pelosi and Illegal Immigration

Bruxley, +1 to the tax comments, and may I add...

considering the wealthy, at least most of them, do not know the tax code very well, if at all, they are forced to hire people like myself to complete their return with as little of a tax liability as possible at a pretty high billing rate for me, so not only would a flat tax or a national sales tax cause a lesser burden on the more wealthy and a higher tax for the poor and/or middle class, it would be putting me out of business :eek: :eek:
 
There's plenty of accounting work to go around when a massive tax decrease spurs more business prosperity. Have no fear, BoringAccountant. You'd be just as well off having 10 new businesses needing your work within a very, VERY short time.
 
not only would a flat tax or a national sales tax cause a lesser burden on the more wealthy and a higher tax for the poor and/or middle class, it would be putting me out of business

That is kind of like a doctor complaining he has no business because no one is dying.
 
We create programs like unemployment, AFDC, welfare and so forth to protect the citizens of our country and those who are here legally.

When the legislature of any state or Congress proposes to pass some law for the poor - such as a retraining program - the intent is that it be available for the citizens of this country. Not for some illegal alien who has decided farm work or day labor isn't cutting it. The same applies to welfare and subsidized medical care.

How to curb the problem? Several things need to be done as far as I'm concerned.
  • Cities declaring themselves "sanctuary cities" do not get a single dime of federal funding. Zip. Zero. Nada.
  • Increase the penalties for hiring illegals knowingly. The first time it can be a modest penalty, then it doubles each time until a "pattern of conduct" is shown over, say, 18 month's time. At that point, the company may be shut down and/or the principals arrested.
  • Increase the penalties for bringing illegals across the border or actively aiding and abetting same.
  • Reduce or eliminate the use of government-funded welfare programs for illegals.
  • Strictly prosecute illegals who commit crimes and upon any release from jail, deport them at once.
  • Caught coming across the border a 2nd time means jail and immediate deportation.
  • Caught as an ex-felon coming across the border, you get a long stay (8-10 years) in jail and deportation.
  • Pop out a baby here but without legal immigration status - sorry not an American citizen. We'll give you some nice pictures as souveniers before deportation proceedings.
  • Investigate cities that prohibit police and other agencies from cooperating w/federal immigration officers and prosecute city councilmen, administrators, lawyers, etc. for conspiracy to violate federal immigration laws.

Notes:
If you want your city to make a political statement about illegal immigrants, fine. If you want certain services to be available, then pay them out of the city's coffers, not my state or federal taxes. If you refuse to follow state and federal laws and order others to do so, expect to be prosecuted.

There are always some exceptions to a "firm" stance. I'm not saying a hospital should refuse to treat a seriously ill child of an illegal or even the illegal himself/herself. Nor be callous in forcing them out while medical care is really necessary. Nor would I advocate prosecuting or harassing charities, churches or groups who try to feed and clothe them.

Reduce or remove the job opportunities for illegals by making the consequences of knowingly hiring them severe enough that the risk isn't worth the potential profit margin for businesses. Restrict their ability to earn a living or make money and fewer will attempt to come here illegally.
 
I think immigration discussions ought include the effect on the American culture. This is seldom considered. We're not all like New York City, which fancies itself a standard for America.

I think immigration should be held to assimilable levels (possibly one tenth of the current level or less), with no family reunion provisions, and no anchor baby Constitutional interpretations.
 
BillCA
+1 to everything you said, I guess its easier said than done unfortunately :mad:

Pat,

I think immigration should be held to assimilable levels

Do you mean legal or illegal immigration? I am assuming you mean legal immigration.
 
The fence is perfectly reasonable as part of a broad spectrum plan to stop the illegals. All by itself, it's just a symbol, but probably worth doing even then.


Pelosi et al oppose it because it's intended to keep out millions of their constituents. Liberals don't have many kids. They adopt foreigners, brainwash students, and indoctrinate TV viewers. That's how they reproduce.


Building the fence is like tying Pelosi's tubes.
 
Can someone please argue her side for me?

I'm not sure if anyone did this yet.. but I'll do it anyway.

1. It might cost too much money.
2. It could hurt the local environment.
3. It might not do anything to stop the problem. What will stop them from using boats or climbing over the fence?
4. Illegal Immigrants help keep things cheap. If companies have to pay employees the right amount of money, the costs of certain things will greatly increase.
 
We don't need a fence.

Like most of our laws, all we need to do is to enforce the ones we have.

Now, how do we fix that problem? When we get the illegals to realize that the atmosphere here is no longer hospitable. Here's how:

1. Cut off ALL assistance for anyone who is not naturalized, a resident alien or US Citizen. Period. You aren't here legally, you don't get assistance. No food stamps, no free medical care (life threatening emergencies excepted, of course!), no handouts of ANY type.

2. You want to go to school? Fine. College level and up, and exchange students are good to go. Public schools? High schools? Better fit into one of the categories listed above.

3. IMMEDIATE revocation of the "born here, automatic citizen" loophole. If your child is born on US soil and you are NOT a US Citizen, resident alien or going through the naturalization process, guess what? Your child is NOT an automatic citizen.

4. If you are not a citizen, you don't work here. Period. In any capacity, in any job.

5. If you are an employer and you are hiring illegals, your business will be fined $20,000 per illegal for the first offense. That means 5 illegals=$100,000 in fines. This must be paid in CASH. Second offense? Your business is closed, all assets confiscated and you go to jail for a few years.

6. Anyone caught in the country illegally will be deported IMMEDIATELY. If you have been here a number of years, and have amassed sizeable assets, thank you for your donation to the US General Fund. Your assets will be seized, with the exception of the clothes on your back at the time of arrest, and you will be deported. Period.

7. To protect the borders, use the Armed Forces to protect them. Relocate some of the major military bases to the borders of the country, and have soldiers performing armed patrol. Put our servicemen and women to work.

8. Let the Mexican Government know, in no uncertain terms, that if our troops, law enforcement officers or citizens are fired upon, that our Armed Forces will respond with overwhelming, crushing force--and that we WILL NOT STOP until we reach the southern border of Mexico, during which time we will stomp a mudhole in someone's butt, walk it dry, stretch out and build a campfire. US Marines will turn their military bases into parking lots, the US Army will paint the stripes, the US Navy will direct traffic and the US Air Force will provide traffic reports in the 51st State.

I believe that nothing short of these measures will work. We MUST make it untenable for any illegal alien, but still remain open and responsive to those who would come to live in America the right way.
 
7. To protect the borders, use the Armed Forces to protect them. Relocate some of the major military bases to the borders of the country, and have soldiers performing armed patrol. Put our servicemen and women to work.

I know. I'm sick of seeing those lazy bums sitting around doing nothing.

#3 and #6 would seem to require Constitutional amendments. Good luck on that.
 
Can someone please argue her side for me?

I'm not sure if anyone did this yet.. but I'll do it anyway.

1. It might cost too much money.
2. It could hurt the local environment.
3. It might not do anything to stop the problem. What will stop them from using boats or climbing over the fence?
4. Illegal Immigrants help keep things cheap. If companies have to pay employees the right amount of money, the costs of certain things will greatly increase.

Thanks Rob...

here is my rebuttal to that argument...
1. I think it has been proven that the cost of allowing the illegals to drain the systems intended for citizens is far greater than the cost of the fence.
2. I think you may be referring to the local towns near the border which a fence may go through...uh, my first response is to bad, but a more reasonable answer would be that in the long run again like the answer to #1, it pays to cut the routes, cut the ways through the border, and cut the safe harbor cities out there...I am sure that some of these cities and border towns do well with having cheaper labour, but at the expense of me, who is 1500 miles away, its not worth it and is wrong.
3. Agreed. Then she should suggest follow up legislation for another procedure, policy, way to prevent this from happening, not just abandoning something that has the ability to be effective if partnered with the other necessary policies.
4. Well my only argument is the same as #1, in the long run, again, we see that the cost we pay to have this cheap labour now, including the drain on schools, crime, social security, etc. systems in place for CITIZENS, far exceeds the extra money needed to pay a legal citizen to perform the job.


I am not sure if you believe the stuff you wrote or if you were just playing devil's advocate, but thanks, I agree that that is her probable reasons, I just dont see how she can ignore the other evidence that contradicts her very reasons.
 
Alnamvet lives in VA.. he does not have them flooding the streets he lives in yet.. :mad:
He does not turn on the TV and Radio station and get more spanish channels than english.
I left work yesterday and went to the market and then bought gas on my way home. I heard only spanish the entire time.. Even in the local store all you hear is spanish on the PA announcements. The only english heard was the guy behind the counter at the gas station.. "si $20.00 on number ocho"
When you drive down the street in a what used to be nice area and can count over 100 day laborors in two blocks you might have an idea of what your talking about.
Until then anyone that does not think this is a problem can STFU!

I deal with it every day, I work with it, i see it and i can't do anything about it. :( except maybe go freakN nuts one day
 
strong feelings

We're playing nambypamby touchyfeely tiddlywinks while our nation is being/has been quietly invaded. They're criminals, by definition ("illegal"?), and many were criminals before the ever set foot on American soil. Invasion is an act of war. Think there are no muslims in with those mexicans? Think again.

- Screw the fence, and the wall.
- Mine the border. Thoroughly. Concertina wire.
- APC, sniper, helicopter patrols with nightvision, shoot to kill orders.
- Prison camps for illegals caught in US. No more revolving-door deportations.
- 1 year in federal prison for knowingly hiring an illegal. Per illegal.
- Two weeks for illegals to run for their lives before the laws take effect.
- One year work visas for guest workers, must be monitored and supervised, w/background checks.

I lived in San Diego for five years, got pretty sick of: Predatory criminal illegals, not being safe from foreigners in my own country, mexican flags, no habla's, hospitals overflowing with illegals, politcal correctness bordering on treason, and de-fanged hands-tied law enforcement. America for Americans, to hell with the foreigners.
 
Here where I live , The border is like a Turnstile. They come in, They get caught, they get Fed, They get transported back to the Border, They come back in 12 hours, They get caught, They get fed, they get transported back to the border. On and On and On. At some point they get missed and stay until caught yet again!

There has to be some form of pain! Intern them in a camp for at least 2 weeks. Nasty food like I have to eat! Bologna sandwiches, Tuna full of Murcury, and the works. Oh yea Twinkies!!!!!!! Twinkies for breakfast.

Build the fence, Count them, Document them and Control the flow!
 
Why is it that many people here seem incapable of discussing illegal immigration without making their proposals sound like some sick cross between the Iron Curtain and the Final Solution? Can we please drop the ridiculous suggestions of mines and snipers, camps and wire? Better yet, get me some boxcars and vicious dogs ... I feel like practicing ... Schnell!!!!!!!!!!

(BTW, I lived for some time in a largely-Hispanic border community, so don't give me some I don't know what I'm talking about crap.)

Pelosi et al oppose it because it's intended to keep out millions of their constituents. Liberals don't have many kids. They adopt foreigners, brainwash students, and indoctrinate TV viewers. That's how they reproduce.


Building the fence is like tying Pelosi's tubes.

I don't know whether to laugh or lament this apparent attempt at political analysis. Disgusting and idiotic.
 
The iron curtain was to keep people from escaping not to keep people from flooding into the country. There’s nobody keeping them here.

In the end someone is going to get something really nasty across the border and we will lose a city or something and that is going to be the end of that. There won’t be any more diplomacy. Anyone who likes working in government will get behind whatever measures it takes to secure the border and the question of what Mexico thinks about it won’t even be on the table. It’s just too bad that it’s going to take something catastrophic to make it happen. I think it would be way cool if our elected officials could see the unavoidable end here and take the steps to prevent it instead of waiting to clean up the mess afterwards.
 
1. I think it has been proven that the cost of allowing the illegals to drain the systems intended for citizens is far greater than the cost of the fence.

No it has not. In fact it has been proven that illegals use about 1/2 the amount of services per capital as do citizens. In other words a community of 5000 illegals costs us about the same as a community of 2500 citizens.



4. Well my only argument is the same as #1, in the long run, again, we see that the cost we pay to have this cheap labour now, including the drain on schools, crime, social security, etc. systems in place for CITIZENS, far exceeds the extra money needed to pay a legal citizen to perform the job.

Again, this is just plain wrong. Not only does an illegal immigrant cost less to hire, they put less of a drain on our community. If you have to replace them with legal workers not only does your business cost go up but your taxes have to go up too.


There are plenty of arguments for securing our border, but the economic ones are just plain wrong. But, since the 1920s politicians have used fear of unemployment as a wedge between groups.

The solution to the illegal immigration problem is free trade and patience. My latin american mutual funds have gone up around 60% during the past year. Invest in south and central america and you not only make a great return on your money you also create jobs in those countries most likely to send workers here.

If you don't believe my mutual fund return check out Fidelity advisors latin fund.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?Symbol=FLTTX
 
I don't know whether to laugh or lament this apparent attempt at political analysis. Disgusting and idiotic.

It's funny to me that you feel that way. The statement you quoted is about half correct. The socialist/communists that are now in charge of the Democratic party love illegals.... they want to make them eligible to vote. They like the fact that they have an uneducated class of people from a third world country that are more susceptible to bribery. These illegals care not what will happen to the US in 20 or 50 or 200 years; their allegiance is to Mexico/S. America or wherever they're from anyway. They are going to be VERY likely to exchange their vote for a handout regardless of the costs down the road. This is why the Dems like them.

The R's, on the other hand, like the cheap labor. Each side is committing treasonous acts by letting our country get invaded. Both sides are selling out the country for personal financial benefits and power lust.... which usually turn out to be one and the same in the political world.

No it has not. In fact it has been proven that illegals use about 1/2 the amount of services per capital as do citizens. In other words a community of 5000 illegals costs us about the same as a community of 2500 citizens.

Really? Nice! You mean people who shouldn't be here to begin with only steal half of what normal citizens use! That's great... it's all better for me now.

I think you forgot about a couple of insignificant little things like a collapsing medical system (that you and I foot the bill for.... I hope you like your high insurance premiums; I know the illegals using our ER's as personal DR's offices do), increased auto insurance, rampant identity theft, etc. It's not just the "social" services that they are affecting.

Again, this is just plain wrong. Not only does an illegal immigrant cost less to hire, they put less of a drain on our community. If you have to replace them with legal workers not only does your business cost go up but your taxes have to go up too.

Once again, I think you forgot most of the real costs here. I kind of like our standard of living here in the US.... why do we want to drive it down by importing a huge class of people who are accustomed to extremely poor conditions? For some cheap labor? Kind of sounds like the American worker is getting the shaft on that one, don't you think?

You also forgot about the cultural clash that's going on as people who don't want to be Americans are slowly immersing the American culture in a foreign one. When an American can't find a job in a common field because they don't speak a foreign language there's a problem.


The solution to the illegal immigration problem is free trade and patience. My latin american mutual funds have gone up around 60% during the past year. Invest in south and central america and you not only make a great return on your money you also create jobs in those countries most likely to send workers here.

The solution to illegal immigration does not involve us being blackmailed with invasion. We need to invest in a foreign country so we don't get invaded? You are kidding, right?

I have LA mutual funds as well, and you are correct about the return. Part of that is some of these "trade agreements" that are giving America the shaft in favor of foreign investment. The politicians regulate and tax the guts out of our businesses and throw the door to a cheaper area wide open.... the same politicians then bitch about the businesses leaving. It's all political BS.

The bottom line is that we're Mexico's pressure relief valve.... the top few % there don't want anything to change because they're living high on the hog. It doesn't matter to them that the rest of the county lives in squalor. If they didn't pawn their social problems off on the US they would have much more serious problems on their hands.....
 
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