Pelosi and Illegal Immigration

Alnamvet,

No drinking and driving here. No red-light a runnin or diamond lane a cheatin. We don’t even jay-walk. Nope…. no Bonnie and Clyde here. No high-rollers here either. Make a good living and the $2K in bridge tolls is part of the cost of doing so. It was not a complaint. The things I mentioned were in an effort to point out that relatively minor offenses/costs-of-living could quickly add up to an appreciable portion of your paltry $5K penalty for a very serious offense. But maybe if you had an argument, you would have used that instead… I understand.:)

Just a little arithmetic for you.

Let’s say the illegal alien couple makes the US average of ~$50K/year. Let’s also assume 2.4 children and $6k/year just for schooling. That makes ~$14K. Now add all of the other things the various government agencies require of the taxpayers and then tell me that the $5K covers some appreciable portion of the cost of illegal aliens residing in our (supposedly sovereign) state.

How ‘bout you do some math and then tell me my $100K is something less than generous?
 
Let’s say the illegal alien couple makes the US average of ~$50K/year. Let’s also assume 2.4 children and $6k/year just for schooling. That makes ~$14K. Now add all of the other things the various government agencies require of the taxpayers and then tell me that the $5K covers some appreciable portion of the cost of illegal aliens residing in our (supposedly sovereign) state.
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I think you missed something. I'll let him confirm, but it seems he was talking about $5K as a fine and documentation fee. Implying that we would then let them start working legally. Meaning they'll now be paying all the same taxes that any other couple making $50K a year does.

Granted, illegals are already paying property tax (directly or indirectly, unless they live in a cardboard box), sales tax, and in many cases payroll/SS/medicare taxes. But Alnamvet's plan would seem to end up having them pay income taxes as well.
 
IF you have noticed that your post was deleted or edited, it was me. If you really need to know why, feel free to PM me (but I think it is self evident to those affected).
 
Nope…. don’t think I missed anything!

I assumed my couple had paid their fine/fee and were already legal. Even if they paid 50% of their income in taxes to the various and sundry government entities, they’d never pay anywhere near what they get in benefits. That’s a major part of my objection here. We already have far too many people who don’t pay equivalent to what they receive. And I may end up guilty myself. At this point I think that’s a race between me and the government…. and if I keep getting worked up over this stuff, they’re gonna win!:)

I just got Almavet started with the calculations. Need to add paying for all of the other benefits one receives from government. The number and variability of the variables (I’m not sure about that phrase, but I’m a victim of government education also:eek:) makes doing “the math” pretty well tantamount to impossible. That’s why I tossed that part back over the fence to Alnamvet.:D

At the end of the day, not too many of us pay our fair share. Meanwhile the gov keeps the presses running, but it’s a false economy. We’ll all pay in the end. No sense at all in bringing that end on any sooner by adding millions of mouths to feed.
 
Absolutely Juan Carlos

That was the crux of my propositon...legal status = tax paying workers. grymster...what tax paying American pays an equivalent for what he receives? I would venture to say if anyone pays a disproportionate amount of taxes, it would be the "little" guy...folk with huge incomes, somehow, pay very little, and in some cases, no taxes, thanks to tax loop holes, crooked accountants, off shore investments...things the little guy has little access to.
 
Alnamvet

I would venture to say if anyone pays a disproportionate amount of taxes, it would be the "little" guy...folk with huge incomes, somehow, pay very little, and in some cases, no taxes, thanks to tax loop holes, crooked accountants, off shore investments...things the little guy has little access to.
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There must be some kind of Socialist / Liberal handbook out there somewhere that has like a list of stupid assertions that their mindless subscribers and followers just suck up without question.

Here, try a dose of reality
Excerpt from:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/legislation/show/22516.html


Well, the truth of the matter is that's exactly what's not happening. If you define "middle class" as the middle 20 percent of American households, that group only paid 9.7 percent of federal taxes in 2004, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), while making 13.9 percent of the nation's pre-tax income. On the other hand, the top 20 percent of American households paid 67.1 percent of federal taxes in 2004, while making 53.5 percent of the nation's income.
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Report from COB (Congressional Budget Office)
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/77xx/doc7718/EffectiveTaxRates.pdf
 
I think Alnamvet doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to who is paying most of the taxes in this country.

Of course, that is not the first time someone on the internet has blithered on about things they know nothing about, nor will it be the last.
 
Absolutely...

I don't know what I'm talking about, and I don't necessarily trust the findings of the CBO as well...the question here is...what percentage of that income of the folk in the top 20% actually goes to taxes? All these government assertions state is that each income group makes such and such...it does not say what percentage of their income actually goes to taxes. Anyway, just read my sig...don't pay any attention to me...I know what I know.:rolleyes:


And yes unregistered, in theory, the more you make, the more you pay in taxes...the reality is that when you have laege amounts of cash on hand, you can hire tax attorneys who can reduce that percentage significantly...the little guy does not have that luxury or option...hence, a greater percentage of middle class income goes towards taxes, while the percentage of taxes paid by higher income groups can and is significantly reduced due to convoluted tax codes that only the well to do can navigate. Got it? Get it? Good!
 
No I don't get it, and I don't think you do either. You are making stuff up. There is only so much you can deduct before the alternative minimum tax is applied to you, and you cannot escape that.

But go ahead, and believe what you want to believe. The bottom line is that most tax in this country is paid by a very small percentage of wage earners.
 
And yes unregistered, in theory, the more you make, the more you pay in taxes...the reality is that when you have laege amounts of cash on hand, you can hire tax attorneys who can reduce that percentage significantly...the little guy does not have that luxury or option...hence, a greater percentage of middle class income goes towards taxes, while the percentage of taxes paid by higher income groups can and is significantly reduced due to convoluted tax codes that only the well to do can navigate. Got it? Get it? Good!
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This is completely untrue. There may exist a subset of wealthy taxpayers who manage to finagle their way out of paying taxes in this way...but on average they actually do pay a higher percentage (often much higher) than you or I. Go look at the actual numbers from the CBO or IRS.

Even those who do manage to significantly reduce their tax burden often do it either with lawyers/accountants (as you mention) or through charity. If the former, then obviously those lawyers/accountants will be taxed on some portion of that income, as will their employer. If it's the latter...well, the taxman isn't generally going to get their hands on it but at least it's still probably doing some good.
 
My my....

very touchy unregistered...if I got your panties in a wad, oh well...interesting that there will always be a few who get into so much drama in a thread that has to do with immigration...doesn't matter that the post mentions taxes...it's the immigration thing that brings out the worst in folk...as for making stuff up?...I'll let you believe whatever it is that keeps you wrapped so tight...:rolleyes:


And try to keep it on topic, so that this immigration related thread, like so many others, doesn't get closed because of drama queen posturing.
 
Here's My Take!

Build the Fence.

Offer 100 front doors for the workers to legally enter the U.S.

Provide them with a Alien Registration I.D. and Tax Number good for say Five Years! ( This would provide some means of tracking )

Rules are as follows:

Reregistration required at the end of the five year period. ( Subject to Records Check )

At the end of the first five year period, They should be able to pursue Citizenship Via normal tracks.

During the fist five years, No Social programs should be available to them.

Convictions of any crimes above Misdemeanor and deported for life.

If found in Country Not Registered, Subject to 30 days Mandatory Confinement followed by Deportation.

Any Persons found Entering the Country any means other then one of the 100 Front doors are subject to 30 Days of Mandatory Confinement Followed by Deportation.

The Border Patrol should not Opperate more then 20 miles from the Border!


Just my Thoughts
 
Sorry if I got riled up Alnamvet, I just get distracted sometimes when people that don't know what they are talking about try to engage in conversations. If you would do a little reading you would understand why what you said was incorrect, and maybe next time you won't come across as completely uninformed.
 
No sweat unregistered....

I'm no accountant, but I know what I know...maybe more and maybe less than some folk, but it's all good...now...where were we???;)
 
I believe the matter being argued concerning taxes has been broached before. An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:
The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.
Our tax system is not so much progressive as it is confiscatory -- Frederic Bastiat called this phenomenon "legal plunder." A progressive tax is based on the premise that those with more income can afford to pay more taxes, and conversely, those with little or no income should pay no tax. However, a quick look at Graph 1A below shows that the U.S. tax system has become far beyond progressive. Fully half the taxpayers contribute almost nothing in individual income taxes.
The Top 1% of income earners (comprising about 1 million families) earn about 15% of the total income earned by all wage earners in the United States, yet they pay almost 30% of all individual income taxes. Furthermore, the Top 1% are shouldering a roughly 50% higher proportion of the overall income tax burden than they did in 1977.
The argument most oft used against tax breaks are that they benefit only the wealthy. It is clear from even a cursory look at the numbers below that the 'wealthy' will receive the majority of any income tax reduction because they pay a disproportionately huge percentage of the income taxes! To structure a tax break such that those in upper income brackets are excluded would constitute nothing more than transfer of wealth from those who have it to those who don't (i.e. legal plunder.)

Here is a link to more information (last updated in 2000).
http://www.sugisorensen.com/taxes/index.html

As it relates to immigration it's obvious. The more non-income taxpayers, or more low wage earners to assimilate, the greater the burden on the economy and the more pressure put on the incomes of families that do pay taxes.

Sound bites and slogans are easier then technical facts but the bottom line is that we had limited amounts of visas for a very sound reason. Only so many can be assimilated at a time without disrupting the economy. This is also why amnesty doesn't adequately address the problem. The burden exists either way legally or illegally, the influx of non-tax payers unsustainable. Further the disproportion makes citizens with low education and/or marketable skills have less opportunity to gain employment and grow in the market to 'gainfull' employment.

LEGAL immigrants have 3 common characteristics that put them out of the 'burden' category and into the 'asset' category, determination, drive, and respect for the rule of law. LEGAL immigrants typically grow in the market very quickly. They achieve middle class or better status more often then not. Usually via entrepreneurial efforts. They are what is refereed to when the 'nation of immigrants' and 'immigrants are the valuable to America's future' truths are evoked. Whether they came poor and uneducated via 'Elis Island' type means or educated on a flight into LAX on an engineer work visa sponsored by Boeing. They had to be determined to navigate the various vetting processes and waiting lists. They had to show the drive to gather the resources from their nation origin via education or hard work and savings. And they did it this way out of a respect for the rule of law.

'Feel good' solutions to economic problems are counter productive. When managing or administering any organization emotive approaches ought be avoided.
 
would yield about one trillion dollars in revenue added to our treasury.
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Cool! Let's sell our country!

You're forgetting all of the other costs involved....


Why stop at a fence? Why not build a giant cement wall - and let's make sure that it goes at least 40 feet under the ground so them pesky illegals can't tunnel past them.

Turrets for sniper nests every 200 yards.
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For once we agree. ;)
 
Heck, I thought would be enough to erect a 3-wire fence along the unoccupied sections of the border with signs in english & spanish saying Warning! U.S. Air Force bombing range - Keep Out - Unexploded Munitions! :D

It might almost be cheaper to buy the 1.5 mile wide stretch along the border to serve as a gunnery range occasionally too.

The real problem with illegals in this country are that you get useful idiots, like more than a few here in California (Mexifornia?), who's logic is that illegals do earn wages and pay taxes and since they are taxpayers, they should at least be able to vote in school board elections to guard the interests of their children. This overlooks:
1. These people are here illegally, without any medical or criminal checks.
2. They pay taxes under false social-security numbers which can screw up someone else's tax returns (ask how I know this one).
3. Being a taxpayer does not guarantee a right to vote (e.g. see "felon")
4. This would provide voting rights to non-citizens; a sure way to destroy a country's identity and soveringty.
5. Children of illegals receiving schooling for free when they shouldn't be in country in the first place.

A few years ago, our local liberal-slanted newspaper profiled a half-dozen illegals who had worked hard, put their US-born kids through college. A nice puff-piece showing the desires of a determined few families. The following week a radio host revealed that 11 people had died due to illegals driving DUI, another 37 had died in homicides committed by illegals and more statistics about those arrested for robbery, rape, sexual assaults, burglary and auto-theft. The total was something a little over 3300 arrests...in California alone... in 1 year.

Want something scary to think about? How many illegals are working in the food industry - from fast food to meat packers - who are carrying tuberculosis? Since none of them have to provide medical info, we'll never know.
 
And yes unregistered, in theory, the more you make, the more you pay in taxes...the reality is that when you have laege amounts of cash on hand, you can hire tax attorneys who can reduce that percentage significantly...the little guy does not have that luxury or option...hence, a greater percentage of middle class income goes towards taxes, while the percentage of taxes paid by higher income groups can and is significantly reduced due to convoluted tax codes that only the well to do can navigate. Got it? Get it? Good!
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Well to be short and to the point...thats not at all what happens, but this isnt the thread about that, and you then stated
I'm no accountant
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so, ah well, back to the OP...

My question in the original post was to argue why a fence is a bad thing...I am not saying that we should onlybuild a fence and leave it, I think Elbarto said it best with his reasons why it cant be just a fence.

BillCA, I agree with your observations, I still cannot understand why if someone comes here illegally, why some feel the need to argue they should be allowed to stay and partake of all the things the US has to offer, they are still illegal.
What do you propose to stop (not really stop, because I dont think thats ever possible) but hinder the advance of immigration (and the unexploded munitions idea is good but not feasible :D)
 
Offer 100 front doors for the workers to legally enter the U.S.
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How many total can we absorb, with 300 million in the USA now at what
point will the system break, please anyone have a guess. My opinion
the answer is clear we cannot absorb all who want to come therefore
we need a set number per year now what we hear is simply open borders.


I would expect middle income people pay a larger percentage of their income
in taxes then a wealthy person. Think the wealthy want a flat tax, they
of course will buy a congressman or senator to prevent that.:barf:
 
Wingman, There already exists a quota for the number of visas issued for legal resident alien status. Illegals are by definition not observing this.

And the wealthy would actually see a relief in their tax burden with a flat tax, the middle and lower class would see a significant increase in taxes. The Top 1% of income earners (comprising about 1 million families) earn about 15% of the total income earned by all wage earners in the United States, yet they pay almost 30% of all individual income taxes. Furthermore, the Top 1% are shouldering a roughly 50% higher proportion of the overall income tax burden. Flat tax would level the burden and increase your taxes (unless your wealthy).
 
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