Our economy

...and I ask again. What good is industrial and agricultural productivity if there isn't a consumer?
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Not much, but the fact is we do have consumers; in fact, too much consumption (spending, even when in debt) is of our biggest economic problems!

Consumer confidence is another key role in evaluating the economy.
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Surely consumer confidence is important, I agree. But we've had over-confidence lately, which has led to over-spending and huge debt. That can't continue indefinitely, and when it stops someone has to pay for the mess. In the meantime, we're exporting our wealth, the source of our wealth, and devaluing the dollar.
 
Here's a nice chart relating CEO / minimum wage ratio from 1965 to 2005.
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_20060627

I have zero problem with corporation out to make a profit, obviously.

I don't even have a problem with CEO salaries growing faster than minimum wage.

It's just that the growth rate of this ratio is an alarming symptom of the gap between the haves and have nots.

Reading the chart another way: a minimum wage worker would average a 0% raise while a CEO would get an 7% raise every single year.

While not an issue that a minimum wage earner doesn't produce any more value than the year before (they aren't paid to think, yada yada), do CEO's produce 7% more value from the year before? Certainly true in short term scenarios, but in the long view? How long is that sustainable?

I support minimum wage increases following cost of living. Cost of eggs increase, cost of stamps increase, and so does the cost the guy flipping burgers... the ratio between these things shouldn't vary much. The alternative is shantytowns in central park.

* And yes, the correlation of that chart with the stock market and the dotcom boom/bust isn't lot on me. It's pretty cool.
 
"There are a few people that seem to only come to these boards to troll the political sections and try to pick fights with anyone that doesn't follow their neo-con path blindly and without question."

The google search was run precisely as YOU said by using cut-and-paste. Your spelling, not mine.

Get a grip guy. No reason to blow off steam here.

John
 
"Did any of you genuises read this Pat Buchanan article yet?"

Nothing new there. He's just rehashing what everybody I know has been talking about for years. And yet, remember when Japan was rolling in dollars and buying up stuff in the U.S.? Remember what happened?

________

September 12, 1995
JAPANESE SCRAP $2 BILLION STAKE IN ROCKEFELLER CENTER

By STEPHANIE STROM
The Mitsubishi Estate Company of Japan plans to walk away from its almost $2 billion investment in Rockefeller Center, the Hope diamond of world real estate.

Mitsubishi proposed yesterday afternoon that it pass ownership of the Manhattan property to Rockefeller Center Properties Inc., the publicly traded real estate investment trust that holds the $1.3 billion mortgage on the center, according to advisers involved in the negotiations to bring Rockefeller Center out of bankruptcy protection.

Mitsubishi's sudden decision to exit Rockefeller Center is the most striking in a string of recent retreats from the trophy properties stretching from New York to Honolulu that Japanese companies acquired during a real estate binge in the 1980's."
 
Not much, but the fact is we do have consumers; in fact, too much consumption (spending, even when in debt) is of our biggest economic problems!

Surely consumer confidence is important, I agree. But we've had over-confidence lately, which has led to over-spending and huge debt. That can't continue indefinitely, and when it stops someone has to pay for the mess. In the meantime, we're exporting our wealth, the source of our wealth, and devaluing the dollar.

Nobodyspecial,
I think we're agreeing on the same plane, yet are saying it in different ways. In one post I state the problem is consumers are irresponsible. This has lead to key problems that we have today.

I think we both present valid points in different senses and maybe we're just misstaking what we're both trying to say.

Am I off track?
 
Tuttle8, you're right -- we are in agreement there. I'm not sure, but I think you were responding to an alternate argument I made: that the decline in domestic industry will seriously damage our economy.
 
Right now: Benny Shalom Bernanke on cspan telling us it's gonna be ok...:o Now that's entertainment!

bernanke-helicopter.jpg
 
Every presidential election year with a Republican in the White house is the same economically. At least as far back as I can remember, it's always reported as the worst economy in recent history. The only cure is a Democrat in the White house. It's almost as if the media was trying to influence presidential outcomes by fanning the flames of any economic weakness and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. But then again, it's probably just a coincidence. They wouldn't be that underhanded.:)
 
One of the best things to come from the devaluation of the dollar is that our products are more competitive overseas. CAT should do well as should most American manufacturers. The devaluation of the dollar really only hurts those in later years of life like older workers close to retirement as their savings are depleted by this hidden tax.

Younger workers benefit with more jobs created in manufacturing. Middle aged and younger families will benefit by paying back their mortgages with dollars that are worth less than what they were when the loan was taken.

American manufacturing is not in deep trouble. We are the most productive country in the world per capita. The issue is that if you are doing a job that they can get a machine to do, you should probably try to get a better skill-set because rest-assured, when the first union strike occurs, the company will use that as an excuse to either move down South, or just buy the machines to do the work.

While we're more productive now than ever, that doesn't equate to lots of manufacturing jobs. If a young person wants to spend a lifetime putting lugnuts on car wheels, chances are, they'll spend more time in the food stamp office than the auto assembly line. It is all about making good choices with your life early on and staying aware of changes to society that you will either react to with good choices, or go vote Democrat.
 
One of the best things to come from the devaluation of the dollar is that our products are more competitive overseas.
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What products? Are we supposed to mark up the stuff we buy from china 10% and sell it in europe?
Younger workers benefit with more jobs created in manufacturing.
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But will the jobs be created when it's still cheaper to manufacture overseas?
These are two things I'm too obtuse to understand.
 
Airplanes, tractors, automobiles, computer software..........
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Yeah, I know. But my real problem is our manufacturing base seems to be getting narrower and narrower. Pretty soon other people will learn how to make these things as well, and will probably do it cheaper. :(
 
babyboomers retiring in all fields. machinist manual and cnc pretty big.
cant easily replace them either as facility to has gone down the drain.
little emphasis and incentives plus most of it was shipped over seas.
they are not working any smarter all the advances tend to be locked up with corporate IP.

this country has stagnated due to corporate greed and locking IP to a rediculas degree all the while sending information into China which doesnt respect IP.
putting the genie back in the bottle taking it overseas and uncorking is not helping this country. we need to get rid of some bad laws that have been made over the last 10 years here. where is free market competition? its a problem that has also promoted business to go overseas as well to bypass such laws.
its also been done to bypass laws in place for national security on high technology ie electronic processors.

my generation has nothing to look forward to as far as social security and other aspects its ridiculous all thanks to irresponsible short sided progressivism left and right.

Economist Ludwig von Mises identified three features of government intervention in the domestic economy: (1) unintended consequences, (2) negative consequences from the policymakers' standpoint, and (3) proliferation of new interventions as correctives for past interventions. The same applies in foreign policy. All foreign policies bring results not intended by those who author the policies. And some of those results are regretted by the policymakers. Further, the undesirable consequences are frequently grounds for further intervention.

problem reaction solution over and over again. fools swallow it time and time again without little cognition or even meta cognition.
 
While we're more productive now than ever, that doesn't equate to lots of manufacturing jobs. If a young person wants to spend a lifetime putting lugnuts on car wheels, chances are, they'll spend more time in the food stamp office than the auto assembly line. It is all about making good choices with your life early on and staying aware of changes to society that you will either react to with good choices, or go vote Democrat.
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It is naive to believe education alone will protect your job while of course it helps we face a future of college grads fighting for jobs at WalMart putting on lug nuts and a job you appear to view as beneath you. A consumer based economy makes money for the wealthy only and in time will destroy the middle class.

I believe many people in modern America believe any profit is good no matter the cost to the country and in fact that is why we are deep trouble,no standards or morals within corporate America. You cannot take the human factor out of the economy but our government works hard to do so.

Those who worship at the foot of free trade better prepare themselves for the future because unless we have leaders soon who put America first it will be a sad future. Capitalism is great and gaining wealth is and should be the goal for all however when you step on the flag and people around to become wealthy I have only contempt.:barf:
 
It is naive to believe education alone will protect your job
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I believe it is absolute stupidity to believe that you can make it in a techno-industrial society without education. Remember that education isn't just classroom. If you want to be a great welder, chances are, you will take some classes or do some serious apprenticeship. You will acquire certifications which will require education.

College is utterly worthless in most cases- except that I wouldn't have the job I have now without it, even though what I do neither requires a degree, nor is in my degree field. All I can say is that I make a lot more money now than when I first joined TFL in 1998 or '99. I am still taking classes in Access and working on certifications.

At one point I was naive and thought I could just join the Army and that would be the end of education, but lo and behold! I ended up in NCO professional development courses, machine gunner's courses, foriegn weapons, small engine mechanic's and many other courses. You can't escape education. You cannot disengage your brain and hope for a bright future by accident.

You mentioned my pet peeve as well and something I deal with a lot. People who view a job as beneath them will eventually work beneath me (for a short while anyway). Employers don't hire somebody or retain those who view an aspect of your job as beneath you. My employer hires me to get the job done. In the absence of staff, I do their jobs. If I didn't, it would mean that I am tired of working here.

Good comments about Ludwig Von Misses. That guy nailed it down tight and we still, after seeing it happen time and time again, don't take his discoveries seriously. The only Presidential candidate who appears to is Ron Paul, and still the American electorate seems to want to dismiss the laws of economics rather than learn to work with them.
 
sasquatch said:
A consumer based economy makes money for the wealthy only and in time will destroy the middle class.
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I keep hearing that, and think it's hogwash!
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I hope you'll forgive me for being slightly less than convinced by that stunningly well-researched, well-structured rebuttal.

Maybe my academic leanings are showing, but I'm inclined to believe people who have studied this just [1] a little more rigorously. Even arguments that middle-class jobs are increasing admit that middle class isn't always what it used to be.

[1] (article originally from the The Colorado Springs Business Journal - this copy selected for readability)
 
I hope you'll forgive me for being slightly less than convinced by that stunningly well-researched, well-structured rebuttal.

Maybe my academic leanings are showing, but I'm inclined to believe people who have studied this just [1] a little more rigorously. Even arguments that middle-class jobs are increasing admit that middle class isn't always what it used to be.
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The guy said it's what he thought. I think it too and quite frankly don't care how superior you feel your opinion is. The fact is we have never had it better. Upper, lower, middle class. We just keep moving the goal posts and redefining what hardship means. These days if you can't afford a 52" high def plasma TV you are hurting.
 
Things change. You can either change with it and take advantage of the new opportunites, or you can whine about the way things used to be. The government can't bring the 50's and 60's back any more than they were responsible for the conditions that made them so nostalgically great in the eyes of some. If you made your kids go back and live that life they would probably try to kill you.
 
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