Our economy

While I agree that Bush is not responsible for our current economic problems, I think his plan for recovery, which he is hashing out with the Democrats, is patently unfair and will do little to improve our long term economic well being.

When I first heard of his plan for a tax break, the initial reports sounded like it would be at least fair, even if it didnt do much to help the economy. Now I am not so sure.

It now sounds as if no one who makes more than $75,000 will get any money back, even though people making that much and more pay the majority of tax. The current proposal will send a check to people below that amount, even if they paid no income tax whatsoever.

So this proposal is no longer a "tax cut". If it was a tax cut, then the people who paid the tax would get a proportional amount back. Instead, it has now degenerated into a government hand-out, since people who paid no income tax will be recipients of the money.

If you don't pay tax, there is no way to get a tax cut. Its just the government giving them money.
 
So this proposal is no longer a "tax cut". If it was a tax cut, then the people who paid the tax would get a proportional amount back.
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It wouldn't necessarily need to be proportional. For instance, the plan mentioned earlier where the lowest bracket was simply set to zero (thus exempting those that don't pay income taxes and capping high income earners at a comparatively low fixed rebate amount) was a perfectly valid tax cut.

I guess at some point it comes down to having to compromise with the good folks running Congress, so this is what we end up with.

If it makes you feel any better, from what I read it seems that this will only go to people who actually earned income...and really, between payroll taxes, social security taxes, medicare taxes, etc. it's probably pretty difficult to pay less than $300 a year to the federal government.

That, and from what I read it doesn't cut off at $75,000 a year, but rather begins to taper off there.

Also, if you look at it from a logical point of view, given the purpose of the personal tax rebates/cuts (to spur additional spending) it doesn't seem like giving money to those who already theoretically have larger disposable incomes would be as effective. They're pretty much already spending what they're going to spend. Leaving aside for a moment the fact that it will probably be spent on a television made in China, when you get down to it $600 given to your average Joe Sixpack (or $300 to Joe Deadbeat) will probably be spent faster than to Joe Caviar. And cutting of at $75,000 a year (especially if that's individual income) means you're only talking about the upper quintile...so the money is still going into a vast majority of hands in the country.

Still, the whole thing sounds like an already mediocre idea turned horrible.


But anytime you talk about "giving back" tax money you can probably expect shenanigans. For instance, our state had a surplus recently and the plan to rebate people went pretty much the opposite direction. It was going to be in the form of a property tax rebate...but only on primary residences or some such. So basically the large percentage of residents who rent were SOL, even though the surplus came from all forms of taxes (including income, and taxes on rental units passed on to renters). I don't even know what ended up happening with it, I think I tuned out as soon as I realized that there was little to no chance that any of my taxes were going to be returned to me.
 
I think the "stimulus" deal is irrelevant in the large scheme of things.

Oh, it'll boost the economy, as such things are measured. Consumer spending will increase, as will business revenue.

The deal will inject cash, but that's only helpful if the cash is used wisely. Most of this will probably go to mortgage/rent payments or credit card bills: paying down debt. And it's good for people to be able to pay their bills... but it's a one-time handout, not a steady income. And a large fraction of this money will be spent on imported goods, which will do no good to our economy.

If the economy is to do better, the nation must be productive (especially of products which can be exported). Unfortunately, our major recent export has been our industrial production capacity. One good aspect is the tax breaks for capital purchases by businesses... it's worth encouraging this. (And I'm usually anti-business! ... hey, how about using this strategy to encourage alternative energy technologies?)

As I see it, with lowered interest rates and a "stimulus" that simply increases the public debt, the main effect might be to further devalue the dollar while providing only temporarily benefit to the stock market. I hope I'm wrong.
 
The deal will inject cash, but that's only helpful if the cash is used wisely. Most of this will probably go to mortgage/rent payments or credit card bills: paying down debt.
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No, it will not.

It will go to big-screen TVs and spinner wheels.
 
I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion now; it's obvious that nobody is being convinced of anything other than each other's stubbornness. As Playboypenguin mentioned back on Page 6, it's probably a good idea to sit back and ask "When was the last time I actually talked about a firearm on these boards?"
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And you also sometimes just have to step back and realize when you argue with people with an agenda you are really just wasting your breath.

And why else would someone hang out on gun boards but never discuss guns unless they somehow feel the need to spread their political point of view to what they think will be a receptive audience. There are a million political boards out there where they can just go crazy if they like.

This has become an issue to the point where some boards have had to completely alter the way they handles political discussions because of how the far right rhetoric was giving the gun community as a whole a black eye.
 
It seems to me that the moderators keep things pretty much on track around here. Threads are closed down all time for not following the posted rules.

This thread is entitled Our Economy, and there has been some interesting discussion on that subject.

If posters do not like a particular thread, I see no reason that they have to jump in and complain about it. They probably should just ignore it, and contribute to threads which interest them.

This forum has the most varied subject matter of any I have seen, and I believe that to be a good thing.
 
And why else would someone hang out on gun boards
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I hope as a group we know more about guns than we do about economics.

When I was kid nobody had AC. Nobody could afford a riding mower. Might have one black and white TV.I got one pair of shoes a year. Didn't wear any in the summer.It wasn't that you didn't have much money.You didn't have any money. It was special to get a Coke. You concentrated on staying warm in the winter and having enough to eat.

This whining about some gloomy economy that is such an inevitable disaster is simply comical.
 
And why else would someone hang out on gun boards but never discuss guns unless they somehow feel the need to spread their political point of view to what they think will be a receptive audience.
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I have to strongly disagree. I have been on this forum for a while now and have to come to the conclusion...no two peoples views are exactly alike, and another conclusion, some Democrats believe in RKBA...amazing isn't it.

But I ask you, how would I have known these things were true if not for other discussions other than guns for these different issues to be brought up? I would not have known JuanCarlos or Redworm or yourself hold views that I do not. Do I take anything that you say less because of those, of course not, as a matter of fact, I find it thought-provoking to know why someone believes different than I do, it either helps me further understand my position or makes me contemplate it. Either way its not a net loss or the need for me to spread my political point of view.

PBP, I think you need to realize that not everyone believes what you believe, and sometimes, if you allow it, you may just learn something from the other side of the aisle, how ever creepy and disgusting that sounds to you, I know I have.

and just for the record...guns...that way the word was mentioned in my post on a guns forum...I know, childish isn't it. :rolleyes:
 
This whining about some gloomy economy that is such an inevitable disaster is simply comical.
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Yep, there's a hell of a lot of people in the world that wish they had our horrible living standards. The rebate seems like more of a pacifier and than anything else.
 
And why else would someone hang out on gun boards but never discuss guns unless they somehow feel the need to spread their political point of view to what they think will be a receptive audience...
This has become an issue to the point where some boards have had to completely alter the way they handles political discussions because of how the far right rhetoric was giving the gun community as a whole a black eye.
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***I hang out here because I like and own guns, even though I'm hardly a big time collector, so don't have a lot to say on the subject.

The various political views of this forum's members are always interesting to me. I'm not on any other political forums, and don't personally know any "right-wing wackos" or so-called "gun nuts" (to use Dem.terms); I don't watch Fox News either. So it's interesting to read the posts here, some of which contain rather right-wing views. I'll admit to voting Democrat more than Republican, for President anyway, but always have to hold my nose to do so: anti-gun, tax grabbing control freak Democrats are hardly my cup of tea. But self-righteous imperialist war-mongering Bush types, who seem to want to bring Jesus back by promoting Armegeddon are more than I can take. Sadly, there never seem to be any viable Presidential candidates who are socially liberal (live and let live) and supportive of individual rights but also fiscally conservative and anti-imperialist?
 
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