Open Carry California

I love it when someone has sort of rolled their own form of "coulda happened, mighta been like that" reality and someone steps up with the facts. :)

To those who feel OC is useless with an empty gun, rubbish. I have had the absolute need to have a gun to head off trouble many times and I always saw the trouble coming in plenty of time. Besides the fact of the matter is mine is only empty 90% of the time, there's one in the hatch and the mag comes out of a pocket in one hand as the gun comes out in the other.

At least in my world there is no sudden unexpected emergency that doesn't allow me a chance to slide a magazine home. After a solid amount of speed shooting events that time isn't a concern for me.

It's easier to access than a boot knife or ankle holster by far.
 
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At least in my world there is no sudden unexpected emergency that doesn't allow me a chance to slide a magazine home.
It's certainly better than nothing, but I wouldn't be too confident in what you view as "time constants" in your world. Things like that tend to be anything but absolute.
 
Fiddletown wrote: "Historically, there seems to be evidence that exercising a right in manner found obnoxious by the body politic is likely to lead to losing that right."

That was certainly the case when the Black Panthers marched into the state assembly chambers with load shotguns way back when. It didn't take them long to outlaw LOC. That's how UOC came to be in the PRC. I agree, we need to pick our battles very carefully in a state that is dominated by anti gun left wingers. I'm guess'n that UOC is going to get knocked in the head when the legislature covenes for its next session. HOWEVER, given Heller & McDonald that may open the way to force CC in CA. Time will tell.
 
I would much prefer concealed carry to open carry around populated areas. People just get freaked out when they SEE a gun. That being said, as long as Heller and McDonald stand, then a complete ban on open carry and very limited access to concealed carry could lead to a successful suit against the state and that could bring in shall issue concealed carry. This is all predicated on keeping the 5 to 4 conservative to liberal basis we now have. Going the opposite direction, the entire country is in trouble, not just us outcasts in Komiefornia. We are only one judge away from complete loss of gun rights. That is all that stands before us. We need to get out and vote on Tuesday!!
 
primarily as a means to prevent recently freed slaves from carrying firearms
Hmmm, not so sure I buy that.
During those times they simply would have made it illegal for a (insert race) man to own a gun, not a "politically correct" blanket law.

Jim
 
Talking California.....

There was a case in San Diego where apparently there were two guys practicing OC, when approached by the police one showed his ID when asked, the other guy "knowing his rights" refused. He was taken into custody and booked, when supervisors looked at the situation they tore up the charges and let him go after he'd been in jail for two hours. He sued and won something like $35k which undoubtedly most of which covered legal expenses.

Enter prominent Representative who initiates a ban on open carry no doubt to see that other cities don't have to worry about being sued for mistakes. Committee passes the resolution to go to a vote 21 to 16. Election year probably was part of letting it die on the floor.

If the goal is to gently bring about a public awareness fine, it's not the time to bring in other issues like your right to refuse to show ID. If you buy a gun you not only have to show ID but pass a background check as well, what's the harm in defusing the open carry situation by being a diplomat for this cause and showing a cop ID?

Our hero who stood by his rights and showed them, he sure did show them, he almost triggered the loss of this right. I can guarantee you that this is not the state to try to get open carry back as a lost right, too many people don't care.

My point is that any attention generated here needs to be well executed attention that starts with a very nice exchange with police officers when questioned. That is not the agenda with guys trying to make a point and be confrontational. It doesn't hurt a thing to show ID and everyone who does is on their way with a very short exchange. The confrontation starts with, "I know my rights and I don't have to show you my ID so I'm not going to". That's a punk action and the responsible guys show it because it doesn't hurt a thing. I don't want a bunch of punks carrying guns around trying to make stupid points, but anyone who wants to carry in a low key way and act responsibly isn't going to bother me a bit. My wife would vote against OC in a heartbeat if it comes up, and the incidents that push it into motion would probably sway me too. Guys trying to make a point do not impress me when they act like idiots with it. Quite frankly punks with guns would wet their pants and do all the wrong things in an armed confrontation anyway.

If I am watching a cop ask someone who is openly carrying ask for ID, a calm exchange of showing it and the officer telling him to have a nice day is going to leave onlookers with a relaxed feeling that it's allright. If on the other hand there are watchers to a snotty "I know my rights and I don't have to show you my ID", most people will be left with a negative perception of the open carry. I won't want snotty punks carrying guns. Show me a highly publicized initiative with clips of guys refusing to show ID and I have my money on this going away. No problem to me, I am getting a concealed permit where I used to rely on the right to open carry. You'd have to be blind not to see where this is going.
 
Someone in an earlier post indicated that he considered his pistol to be unloaded when it had a round in the chamber and a loaded magazine in his pocket. Spoke of how quickly he could convert from 'unloaded' to 'loaded'. I advise him not to do that in my state of California. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that arrangement in California qualifies as a loaded gun. Something about the fact that the magazine is an integral part of a self-loading pistol. Ironically enough, an empty revolver in a pocket and a Bianchi strip of cartridges in that same pocket does NOT qualify as a loaded gun. The Bianchi strip is not part of the revolver. Indeed, it is nothing more than an ammunition container, legally just like a crate of ammo. Or so an attorney told me, and he may have been fishing for some business . . . .

Cordially, Jack
 
jaydubya said:
...Someone in an earlier post indicated that he considered his pistol to be unloaded when it had a round in the chamber and a loaded magazine in his pocket. Spoke of how quickly he could convert from 'unloaded' to 'loaded'. I advise him not to do that in my state of California. Correct me if I am wrong,...
Absolutely. With a round in the chamber, it's a loaded gun -- no matter where the magazine is.
 
Absolutely. With a round in the chamber, it's a loaded gun -- no matter where the magazine is.

And I'll add ( before someone goes down this path ) and it wont matter if the gun has a magazine disconnect or not.
 
Alaska444 is 100% correct. ONE SUPREME COURT MEMBER CHANGE (for an ANTI) MAY TURN EVERYTHING ON ITS EAR FOR GUN OWNERSHIP IN THE USA.

It can happen!

There have been many examples of people voicing their "rights" in public in a manner that isnt good for the freedom that they are seeking to protect.

Many times its HOW its done.

I think everyone aggrees that the "church" (I use that term lightly) that protested a soldiers funeral with absolutely horrible signs was one of these examples. They were excercising their "rights" in a way that ensured that their future rights will be curtailed.

I in no way want to lump together the OC display in Calif with these IDIOTS, only to make a point about the proper use of rights.

Please dont take offense. I respect the OC battles, just remember that not EVERY use or display of rights.... are the RIGHT thing to do.

Planning and patience is the key.... not silence.
 
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You truly can't open carry legally unless you are way out in the wilderness of CA. The 1000 ft gun free school zone prohibits the free exercise of open carry. Plan out a route to open carry going through LA for instance:

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=s...d=0CDEQtgMwAA#
Alaska:

That map is a huge exaggeration, and is a gross distortion of reality.

California law only makes it illegal to have a gun within 1,000 ft of a K-12 school. Many of the dots on that map are not such schools. They include things like numerous daycares, beauty salon schools, language schools, trade schools from truck driving to film school, Art schools, Seminaries, even an Islamic Learning Center.

K-12? within walking (not including short 5 minute drive) distance of my house there are 3 highscools, 2 jr highs, and 3 elementary schools.

Carrying in California is a conundrum :barf:
 
During those times they simply would have made it illegal for a (insert race) man to own a gun, not a "politically correct" blanket law.
Seems logical, but that's not what they did. It's pretty well illustrated by the fact that if you start poking around you'll find that the folks being prosecuted under these laws were freedmen, not whites.

The TX travelling exemption (now no longer in the law), for example, began as a precedent from a court case involving a freedman.

You have to remember that during reconstruction the southern states were treading on eggshells.

It's also pretty hard to ignore the fact of when gun control started in the south. The states that passed laws all passed them during the era right after the civil war.
 
I wonder at those who say there is an acceptable time and place to exercise rights. Who determines where and when? The LEO that asks for my ID must have a reason. Acquiescing to his/her demand simply because they ask for it is not on the agenda for the day. The officer has a responsibility to know whether or not they can ask for ID in a given situation. The attitude that I should just lay down and comply with an unlawful demand is ludicrous! This gives the LEO the idea that this can be done to anyone! The LEOs work for the community they serve, so the badge they receive comes with whatever authority that community assigns to it, not whatever they think they're entitled to.

Should their jobs be easier? You bet! Should they have the respect and support of the community they serve? Absolutely! They do that which many are unwilling or unable to do. Should they be held to the standards set forth in the laws they enforce? Of course they should! Having said that, why should I renounce my right, even once, to be presented with evidence of my wrongdoing, if any, face my accusers, all of them, and be provided the opportunity to mount a defense?

Because that is exactly what I'm doing when I follow Woodguru's advice to "take a sensible approach" to remain "under the radar" and let a cop demand my ID without cause! This is not an attack, Sir, just disagreement. The cop who asks for my ID without cause is the one who needs to take the sensible approach.
 
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I wonder at those who say there is an acceptable time and place to exercise rights. Who determines where and when?
I marvel at those who try to imply that there is not.

Almost any activity has an appropriate setting as well as inappropriate settings. Things that would be perfectly acceptable in one context are totally inappropriate in another.

You have the right to free speech, but loudly talking about a bomb while on a commercial flight is not at all appropriate.

Common sense and prudence should tell us when something is appropriate and when it is not.
 
eddiejoe333 said:
...The LEO that asks for my ID must have a reason. Acquiescing to his/her demand simply because they ask for it is not on the agenda for the day...
And I can't help wondering what the question of an LEO asking for ID has to do with choosing approaches to promoting a desired political result and winning popular support for a cause. It still strikes me that if your goal is to educate the public and gain support for something, it's not very wise to go around doing it in a way likely to be obnoxious by a lot of people.
 
You are correct that common sense and prudence should dictate such expressions. I consider using "bomb" and "airplane" in the same sentence, to be the same as "fire" and "crowded theater", when the intent is to cause panic, distress, injury, etc. Californians have missed the boat on both common sense and prudence, and now should speak out whenever they can. Perhaps it is too late, perhaps not, but I find the argument to not-say-anything-and-maybe-no-one-will-notice suspect.

We just had an election. A friend of mine, a Marine and Vietnam vet, said something disturbing to me. Paraphrasing, he said that in the states where Republicans lost races, it was due to Tea-Party-endorsed contestants taking votes away from the Republicans. He feels that those who ran without Republican party backing, should never have run, because they "screwed" the Republican candidates out of votes they should have gotten. My reply was that the independents had every right to run, and that those votes belong to the voters. He agreed, but that they should have sacrificed their campaigns, and their principles, for the benefit of those who didn't feel as they did, and would not have done the job they may have been elected to do.

My point behind all this is that the third-party candidates exercised their rights. I'm sure they ran not just to make a point, but to actually accomplish something, like win the election. I think my friend would have a diffferent opinion if more of those people had won. Even having lost, they still showed America's distaste for the state of the country.

In the case of those guys up in SF, were they not doing the same? Are not some asking them to sacrifice their principles for those who do not feel as they do?

In California, they limit the type of weapon one can purchase. They limit how one can possess it. What is next? Whether one can possess a firearm at all? Yes, we have a conservative Supreme Court now, but who knows what the future holds? If a court battle is in the works, better to have it when the balance of forces is in your favor. Yes, there are recent decisions in favor of gun owners, but how long did they take to get to the S.C.?

I wonder, JohnKSa, about the motives of those who tell us to sit down and shut up when being abused, or as a old friend used to say, "Hold my coat while I kick your a**!" However, in this country, the First Amendment allows them to say this. The Fourth of those allows me to refuse to comply.

To fiddletown, I would say that complying with an ureasonable request by an LEO in order to get permission to go about my business is trading one fight for another, because now, that LEO thinks it acceptable to make that same demand again and again. If I am expected to abide by the law, why aren't they? As to your second point, Sir, I would look to the early European settlers here and wonder, if less-offensive means were available to obtain the freedoms they desired in the countries they left, why did they leave?
 
eddiejoe333 said:
...I would say that complying with an ureasonable request by an LEO in order to get permission to go about my business is trading one fight for another, because now, that LEO thinks it acceptable to make that same demand again and again...
I'm not going to argue that point with you, but it has nothing to do with the topic under discussion.

eddiejoe333 said:
...Sir, I would look to the early European settlers here and wonder, if less-offensive means were available to obtain the freedoms they desired in the countries they left, why did they leave?
A meaningless comparison -- how was leaving offensive?
 
Eddiejoe: If a law enforcement officer asks me for my identification, I show him my identification. I do that all the time, just to get on base to go to the commissary. I'm a retired Naval Aviator with six battle stars on my Vietnam Service Ribbon. I respect your friend's service as I am sure he would mine. But don't you pull your friend's war service on me. I would also appreciate it if you kept your rather windy opinions pertinent to your side of the Colorado River.

Jaydubya
 
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Fiddletown, I suspect he meant the Europeans who left the continent may have found it offensive that they had no lesser recourse available than leaving home for the New World, not that they offended by leaving.

He may also have wanted to imply that leaving for the frontier really isn't an option anymore.
 
MLeake said:
...I suspect he meant the Europeans who left the continent may have found it offensive that they had no lesser recourse available than leaving home for the New World, not that they offended by leaving....
Even if that is the case, what does it have to do with the proposition that if one wants to favorably affect popular or political opinion, using tactics that are found offensive by too many people one seeks to influence is counterproductive?
 
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