Open Carry California

CWP Instead

I guess I'll trump the open carry if it gets challenged.

I've been meaning to get a concealed permit for some time now. We are in one of the counties that issues them so it makes sense. If the political climate changes in such a way that this tightens up I'll hopefully be grand fathered into one at a later time when it isn't happening.

The police documented threats I've had make it pretty much a done deal.
 
It seems like that you would want to fight for CC rights (WITH a LOADED gun) than fight to continue a OC fight that you will have a tough time getting enough votes to support. Maybe legislation of CC in the city, OC in the country makes sense.

Thank you for that post, Dean. I have attempted to say something like that on this thread several times (and much worse as well), and deleted my efforts each time. First, I'm a Californian. When I saw what those, um, fellow Californians were doing IN SAN FRANCISCO!! , I realized they were challenging our legislature to make a law unmaking a law that made it legal to carry openly provided the gun was not loaded, and could not be easily loaded. And within minutes an assemblywoman from my town (San Diego) proposed a law doing just that. It came within a butterfly wingflap of appearing on our governor's desk for signature (he would have signed it!), but due to technicalities failed to do so. But almost certainly it will reappear next session.

I was bent out of shape because there are legal efforts underway in state and federal courts that could switch the entire state from "may issue" to "shall issue" -- a far more important right. I saw this open carry fandango in San Francisco as being the kiss of death.

I was wrong. Those guys with big ol' Glocks on their hips in that San Francisco coffee shop may be deeper thinkers than I am (or not, but let's go with that thought). We will get nothing useful from our legislature regarding gun rights until they are forced by the courts to do it. This will take time. We could use this time to eliminate a potential road block: a state law that has existed since the 1960s, which allows us to openly wear sidearms, so long as they are useless. Who needs such a travesty? What we need is responsible concealed carry in urban areas, and open carry in rural areas.

Whew!
Jack
 
Last edited:
Who thought of the UNLOADED thing???????

Sheeze....is that STUPID, or What?



I have visions of Barney Fife... "Let me get my Bullet"

Comedy on the Andy Griffin Show,Absolutely LUDICROUS in REAL life....
 
The "unloaded thing" was due to a law passed because the populace of California became unhappy with a group of people exercising their right to open carry loaded several decades ago.
We could use this time to eliminate a potential road block: a state law that has existed since the 1960s, which allows us to openly wear sidearms, so long as they are useless.
Click to expand...
Except that so far the efforts of the "guys with big ol' Glocks on their hips", to use your words, haven't done anything toward eliminating the road block. Instead they have caused at least one business that formerly had no policy on open carry to adopt an anti-open carry policy and they also generated enough negative publicity that the CA legislature came within 1 vote of banning OC altogether.

To be perfectly clear I'm NOT saying that OC can't be used constructively, just pointing out that it doesn't always work out that way. The biggest problem I see is that many people who back this particular flavor of activism absolutely refuse to accept the idea that it could possibly have a negative outcome.

If you simply can't conceive of the idea that what you're doing could have a negative outcome it follows that you won't plan to try to avoid a negative outcome nor to deal with a negative outcome in the most constructive way possible.
 
fiddletown and the like are spot on in regards to this issue in my opinion.

They thumbed their nose at the politicians and remainder of the public (some of which were on the fence voters) while excercising what little right they have left as a way to demonstrate they are resposible enough to have more.

Not the most effective tactic.
 
John, I don't think we are far apart on this topic. I don't remember whether the "open carry but useless" law passed back in the sixties was a proposition or a legislative act. I'm not fond of either process as they have developed in California. As far as the San Francisco display of useless handguns is concerned, it probably will result in that law's abolition during some future legislative session. It was my realization that this would be good, because it will clear the air, that caused my outburst above.

My basic point is that, while we howl and demonstrate, the courts are sorting out how we may "keep and bear Arms". Our system works, and it works at all levels of governance. My county sheriff is currently being sued in federal court for the allegedly arbitrary way he disapproves concealed carry permit applications. His case is not proceding too well. Heh heh.

Cordially, Jack
 
As far as the San Francisco display of useless handguns is concerned, it probably will result in that law's abolition during some future legislative session.
Click to expand...
We can all hope, but it's important that we understand and acknowledge that while that is the goal the result obtained was very nearly the opposite of the one desired. That is, instead of the law being abolished, it was very nearly strengthened to ban all open carry. The attempt failed by a single vote.
Our system works, and it works at all levels of governance.
Click to expand...
Yes, but again, it's important that we understand and acknowledge that the system works for the other guys too. If there are more of them than us or if they are better or smarter at working the system than we are then they will get what they want and we won't.
 
I am certainly glad I live in the Gold State of Arizona. As people are aware we recently passed legislation making it legal to carry concealed without a permit in addition to our long standing open carry laws. Mind you these are loaded weapons. This was done through the legislative process.

It would seem to me that those of you in California should use the power of the vote and legislative action to achieve less strict gun/ammo laws. (Ooops--that's right-- you are the ones who have Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein etc.) So maybe the Starbucks group was a little flashy, but at least they were doing something.
 
To me, (IMHO) (Please dont take this wrong)

Doing something, something that is unplanned, something that HURTS the overall cause, is not correct.

As a nation, many of the past gun owners, usually the man, have stopped teaching our children about how to safely enjoy firearms.

Into this vacuum, a liberal media and a school system regularly teaches our youth about how "bad" and "hillbilly" owning guns is.

Think about how many times you have heard the "gun nut" phrase the last 5 years. Do you remember that phrase in the 70s or 80s?

A generation passes, and a son or daughter has a negative opinion on guns.
HOW DO YOU THINK THAT PERSON WILL VOTE ON GUN OWNERSHIP IN THE FUTURE?

We "shoot ourselves in the foot" (pun intended) when we do actions like what happens in San Fransico. The non-gun owning VOTING populace that may be on the fence, now thinks the hillbilly, redneck, and GUN NUT title FITS.


A few thoughts from a Texan (about doing SOMETHING):

1) As gun owners, we need to go shoot with our kids.... GO TODAY
I take my kids friends as well

2) REALIZE that as a gun owner, your actions are on display to all.

3) If you do a face to face sale, if something doesnt seem right about the
buyer. (I know we cant see inside someone, and not an exact science)
DONT SELL THEM THE GUN !!

4) Shoot responsibly, the anti's are actively looking for ANYTHING to use
against us

5) Put locks on your guns around very young children, and if you have a
child with emotional difficulties, make them even more safe. (buy a safe)

6) Use your resources and time to fight the battles that you know that you can win (CC has a chance as more and more states are allowing it)

6) Join the NRA

7) Vote, Vote, Vote

Remember, the fight is NOT against the other gun owners. We may disagree, but we do need to come together.

The ANTI's are GROWING, ORGANIZED, and WELL-FUNDED..........

We need to be clear that we have a battle ahead it just needs to be done legally and with some forethought
 
Last edited:
When you start talking about taking on issues and out voting you don't even want to talk about taking on anti gun nuts in San Francisco, Sausalito, Walnut Creek, etc. There's just plain areas in this state it's best to leave well enough alone. That was my original point.

There's guys who honestly want to carry for their peace of mind and they can now do it. Those who want to make an issue of it can and will wave a red flag and lose.

I am one who has quietly carried without having to make a big deal about it and feel that anyone else who feels the need should just do it in a low key way.

Two choices, quietly exercise and enjoy something that's already legal, or ignorantly make a big deal out of it and screw it up. That isn't the way it should be but that's the way it is. Fighting to make a point for an issue you already have is pretty stupid.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the anti gunners are just smart enough to have guys like this running around in the most conspicuous manner in the least "acceptable" places just to fire anti's up, it would be about as effective as any way to get open carry off the books.
 
Ok,im not saying it's right or wrong to oc,all im saying is when you have no other option,what other option is there?

Reguardless of how many votes it missed passing by,the fact of the matter is it's legal,And it is a "RIGHT".You dont have to agree with it or even practice oc'ing.But those who do should be supported.

And as one poster said,those rights that are not practiced are lost.(something like that).I also agree that parents are not teaching there kids about gun safety or even take there kids to the range(or where ever).And thats a shame.There is a growing trend since our " " Supreme commander was elected and more people started arming them selves.And thats why i think (here in california anyway)gun controll is loosing ground.Slowley but it is.
 
javabum said: And thats why i think (here in california anyway)gun controll is loosing ground.Slowley but it is.

I completely agree with that statement, which is why I think this is not a good time to demonstrate (I'm not saying you do). The Supreme Court's 'Heller' ruling is just the beginning. Now all those gun laws must be taken to court, one by one, and beaten down, one by one. It will take years to do it. Be patient.

Cordially, Jack
 
Reguardless of how many votes it missed passing by,the fact of the matter is it's legal,And it is a "RIGHT".You dont have to agree with it or even practice oc'ing.But those who do should be supported.
Click to expand...
It's legal because they couldn't get that last vote they needed to make it illegal.

I support the RIGHT of people to OC, but I don't support people just for practicing a right. If they practice it wisely I support them. If they don't act wisely then I don't support them. Even if they're doing something unwise and I don't support them in that particular action it still doesn't mean I'm saying that what they're doing should be illegal, it just means that I think it's unwise.

Given that the goal of these OC demonstrations was NOT to get the legislature to try to pass anti-OC laws nor was it to cause companies/businesses to adopt anti-OC policies and yet that's what happened, I would say that the people organizing these demonstrations might want to take a step back and re-evaluate their strategy.

I'm not saying to eliminate the demonstrations, I'm just saying that a little more forethought/planning needs to be employed. It might be that something as simple as a call ahead to a restaurant where a get-together is planned would have made all the difference in the world as opposed to just having a bunch of folks show up at a place openly armed.
...those rights that are not practiced are lost...
Click to expand...
Could you provide an example of a right that was lost because it was not practiced?
 
I must be missing something, why carry a handgun at all if it can't be loaded then, what good is it?
Click to expand...

The gun cannot be loaded but you can carry ammo. All it takes is a few seconds to grab the magazine, insert and chamber a round. Not going to win a quickdraw contest, but in other situations where things are evolving a little slower it would be a viable method of self protection. Think of it as a continuum of readiness, from very ready, gun in hand safety off, round chambered, to not ready for a gun fight, gun at home in safe. Gun in holster with ammo in separate magazine ready to load is far from ideal but better than a gun sitting at home. Hopefully the current court fights in CA will render this a moot issue soon.
 
I'm not saying to eliminate the demonstrations, I'm just saying that a little more forethought/planning needs to be employed. It might be that something as simple as a call ahead to a restaurant where a get-together is planned would have made all the difference in the world as opposed to just having a bunch of folks show up at a place openly armed.

John, I now disagree with you. As I just said in my last post, this is not the right time to demonstrate. Rather, this is exactly the wrong time.

But cordially,
Jack
 
wally626 said:
...All it takes is a few seconds to grab the magazine, insert and chamber a round....
Click to expand...
Which you might not have in an emergency. At the same time by openly carrying a gun, which the entire criminal community knows is probably not loaded (most serious crooks have a pretty good knowledge of the law), you have made yourself a target of any hood wanting to pick up a gun on the cheap. Add that to needing to keep 1,000 feet from schools, and unloaded open carry really doesn't sound like a great plan to me.

In any case, most of the unloaded open carry going on not long ago was for political purposes, not ordinary self defense.

javabum said:
...You dont have to agree with it or even practice oc'ing.But those who do should be supported...
Click to expand...
And I have a problem with that. If there's good reason to believe that recent unloaded open carry activities can be damaging to the overall RKBA movement, and I think there is, I don't see why it should be supported.
 
It's so nice to be in PA... I open carry without issue and *gasp* the gun is always loaded with a round chambered. I love my home state (although there are some areas where the police will disregard the law and harass).
 
...those rights that are not practiced are lost...
Could you provide an example of a right that was lost because it was not practiced?
Click to expand...

Not being a legal scholar, I don't have legal precedent at my fingertips, so bear with me as I have a go at it.

Think back to the mid 1800's. Around 1849. There was a little thing called the gold rush starting at a place called Sutters Mill. In 1848 gold was discovered and in the next 5 years 10's of thousands of individuals from out East sold everything, bought supplies and headed to California to get rich. Picture the man, on a horse with his spurs a jingling, his 10 gal hat cocked at an angle, his Colt 6 gun on his hip.... Wait... A Colt 6 gun on his hip? In California? Yes, it USED to be a legal constitutional right to have a loaded 6 gun on your hip out in the open, or in a building like a bar. Look closer at that miner, he probably went to the town every other month and had a bender. He might have put a derringer in his boot or pocket or even tucked in a sleeve. What?? In California? A concealed gun --without a permit?? Yes, it USED to be a legal constitutional right to have a loaded gun hidden in a pocket, boot, etc to protect yourself from evil doers.

Seems that as the years rolled by, the practice of having a gun hidden on yourself was practiced less and less as there were fewer evil doers. Soon, the practice fell to mostly only evil doers. Eventually, fat bellied politicians started passing laws to make it illegal to hid a gun on yourself. That RIGHT was lost. The same thing occurred with the open carry of that loaded six gun on the hip. The practice of open carrying a loaded gun was not practiced and it was soon seen that anyone doing so was "abnormal". Soon laws were passed making it illegal and that RIGHT was lost.

You used to be able to own a cannon and the same weapons possessed by the military. In fact, many of the cannon in the revolutionary war were privately owned -- not bought by the government for the military. The same size and power of cannon that both sides were using -- owned and operated by private citizens. With out a permit or any government permission. After a while, the continent became more civilized with fewer massacres by PO'ed natives or groups of bandits and the private ownership of cannon became a rare thing, soon it was seen that anyone doing so was "abnormal". Laws were passed making it illegal and that RIGHT was lost.
 
Interesting history you've created but it's not based on reality.

Gun control came into vogue after the civil war, primarily as a means to prevent recently freed slaves from carrying firearms, not as the result of the disuse of firearms rights by the general public.

Privately owned cannons did exist, primarily on ships. You can still privately own a cannon if you have a ship to put it on and are careful about where you dock.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top