ONE SHOT STOP (just the facts, NOT a can of worms)

B

Biff Tannen

New member
I am interested in recomendations of data on the "one stop shot" for handguns in a self defense situation from humans (bad guys).
I am DEFINITELY NOT trying to open up a placement vs round debate.
I am just asking for recommendations for reputable places I might read up on statistics that might lead to insights and education.
Again, respectfully, the qualifier as to what I am looking to study: Statistics.

Thanks, all. Your input and advice is much appreciated.
 
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[ONE STOP SHOT]

There is no such animal. Not that would guarantee a one shot stop.

Ask any hunter, most will tell you of game shot with high powder rifles, good hit in heart lung area and running for a while before going down for the count.

I've see deer shot with just about any caliber possible and still run. An example is a deer shot with a 300 WM, 180 grn bullet that opened up just like it was suppose to. Sucker ran a 100 yards, upon examination there was an exit wound you could hide a steel pot in. Took out most of its lungs and part of its heart.

You never can tell what any bullet will do or wont do.
 
Are you talking about shooting game or people? I've seen or investigated plenty of each. IMO, the phyical and mental state of the 'target' are just as important as the round used or where the target was hit.
 
Each shooting is a unique event and there are no magic one shot stop personal weapons, or valid one shot stop statistics.

For example one person may be stopped by a single .22 LR hit, another might absorb multiple .45 ACP hits and keep on fighting.

Read this Handgun Wounding Factors it will be a good place to start learning the realities of 'stopping power'.
 
There is a "database" of sorts floating around cyberspace with that exact information. Sorry I can't remember who/why/ where but it is out there.
 
Here is a link to an interesting article regarding shot placement and and ammo:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

I am far from an expert, but I have read everything I can find on this idea of making a one shot stop. Using all common self defense handgun calibers the only way of assuring immediate incapacitation is a hit to the central nervous system, and even a head shot sometimes does not get this done. With that in mind, center mass is the recommended target and is the reason I practice double taps and use quality HP ammo.
 
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I wish I had a connection to lead you to, . . . but I've long since lost it.

The info on handgun calibers went through those normally carried by LEO, . . . and the round with the most one shot stops was very simply the .357 magnum. I don't think they differenciated on barrel length, . . . but this is the hands down one shot stopper king from the common calibers carried by LEO's.

The long gun category was won by the 12 gauge shotgun, . . . and I don't remember if it was slugs, buck shot, or even if they differenciated.

These are the two most commonly owned / used "one shot stoppers" from an article I saw some time back, . . . wish I had the url for you.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
If Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow didn't coin the term "One Shot Stop", they're certainly responsible for the term's prominence in the lexicon.

I wanted to believe in "THE One Shot Stop" I wanted to be able to look at a simple grading system and pick the round with the highest grade.

Unfortunately trying to get to a a number of "effectiveness" or some sort of grade by studying or examining shootings that occured, is extremely difficult. There are hundreds of varibles.

Marshall and Sanow grossly over simplified the process. They also had no scientific training, no training in how to conduct a scientific study. They also had no knowledge of statistics.

As a consequence, their study has no validity.

So there you go...
 
45% of people shot in the head who then make it to a hospital die, irregardless of other injury's. Im afraid I cant site source as I long for got it but search pubmed for "GSW" and you will eventually find it.
 
Since this is the handgun forum, and the term used, I'll assume we are discussing stopping a human with a single shot.

The only thing that stops a determined human from continued action is stopping nerve signals to the muscles.

That means either stopping transmission from the brain (central nervous system) or stopping the brain itself.

Shutting down the CNS requires physical damage. A direct or very close impact. Shutting down the brain can be done the same way, or through loss of blood pressure.

Now, there are degrees of everything, in people, in calibers and cartridges, in hits, angles of impact, bullet travel and performace after impact, etc...

Which is why we have so many choices.

If you are looking for the magic bullet that instantly switches someone off, I'd venture to say that every round ever used for the purpose has instantly shut down someone, somewhere, sometime. Just as they have failed to do that to someone, somewhere, sometime.

Until we develope phasers, lasers, or Marvin the Martian's Disintegrator Raay, the one shot stop is a mythic ideal, on to "shoot for" but know that it won't happen absolutely 100% of the time.

There is lots of discussion about what is best (and by best meaning more likely) to produce a one shot stop. Large numbers of shootings have been studied, and conclusions, both right and wrong have been drawn and argued.

And still the debate goes on.

and I believe that everything I've said here is a fact.

If you want detailed specifics, then you have to open that worm can.
 
I am interested in recommendations of data on the "one stop shot" for handguns in a self defense situation from humans (bad guys).
Click to expand...

"One shot stop" with a handgun happens, but it demands the convergence of a lot of factors and is the statistical equal of throwing a coin at a vending machine from across the room and having it go in the slot. That said, I suspect that real, scientifically validated, data is going to be hard to come by.

On a more practical note. It "can" happen, but any reliance on the notion that it will happen is foolish ESPECIALLY in a self-defense situation where your life is on the line.

The unpleasant truth about handguns for self defense is that they kinda suck. However they do suck a whole lot less than most of the alternatives.
 
I believe that some of the calibers achieve a phenominal stop record for more than just hitting hard. For example the .357 Sig and .357 Magnum. They both hit hard, but I believe in a "psychological stop" due to the excessive noise/concussion involved. These rounds also seem to stun like a flash/bang grenade, and I read somewhere that the noise pressure levels actually exceed those of said grenades. Not sure if that's true, but it makes sense.

Ayoob often speaks of street data involving these rounds dropping people with hits to the extremeties. This is where I see the psychological factors kicking in.

Take a look at these stats down the page of this link, and keep in mind that a 3db increase means twice as much sound energy. Scroll down to the post by Harmonic for the numbers:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-604742.html&
 
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Sometimes people get shot. Sometimes they fall right down, sometimes they dont. Sometimes they die sometimes they dont. Sometimes they die right away, sometimes they die later. Sometimes they die right away and dont know it.
 
"One Shot Stop" studies are about as worthless as a couple pennies in your pocket. The available info is not enough for accurate readings and it's subject to much interpretation. There was actually an article by the FBI that debunks the myth of One Shot Stops and the studies surrounding them.

Basically, live by the FACTS that any gun is better than none and bigger/more powerful is better (even if only marginally better). After that in the real world there isn't much difference between any of the commonly accepted cartridges used for SD. I'm talking .38sp thru 45acp thru .357. If you think that any one of the cartridges in gonna deliver a magic bullet when the others would of failed you're sadly mistaken.

LK
 
There was a study done a long time back, so it may not be accurate any more but it concluded that the best 2 chances of a one shot stop were the .357 Magnum with any decent 125 Gr HP bullet at 1350 or so FPS, or a .230 Gr .45 hardball round. Both were in the 71~73% effective range IIRC.

This is defining "one shot stop" as "causing the human assailant to immediately stop what he was doing", it had nothing to do with anything that happened other than that, such as death or a full recovery, or anything in-between at a later date.
 
87% of statistics are made up 95% of the time. .22LR has killed more humans than any other cartridge. Revolver cartridges were in use for much longer than autos so of course .357 has more "one shot stops". The data needs to be normalized.

These "facts" turn the whole discussion off for me. Practice and carry and hope you never need to use any of it.
 
Everytime I see a post on one shot stops I think of two events I've read about.

The first was from the New York stakeout squad where a bad guy was shot at15 feet with a 12ga loaded with 00 buck. The bad guy took the load full on in the chest and shot the officer twice in his vest. It took a second 12 ga load to put him down.

The second was an officer in California who was dropped and died from a .25 ACP to the upper arm.

One shot stops ............Not something that can be predicted.
 
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