on common politeness

Newton24B, I see your point and you are right to a degree. However, I read on these forums of gun buyers having issues with their purchases and/or warrenty issues that never get resolved. Over time you can and should develop an opinion of the quality of a manufacturers product and whether or not they stand behind it. I like to know if someone is putting out carp before I purchase, NOT AFTER, so I would still like to hear from people who have these issues. I do believe that if people don't have first hand experience with a certain weapon or manufacturer then maybe they shouldn't be expressing a opinion, as what is their basis.
 
I'm so tired of reading this kind of crap (as posted by the OP). The fact is that for many, certain brands do have a higher rate of problems. I've experienced this personally. It has absolutely nothing to do with brand loyalty. From posts like this, I'm really starting to believe it's the people who own some of these problematic brands that have the bias. They so want to believe that their gun is as good as anything else, and they can't stand the fact that some honest people (when asked) share their experience indicating otherwise. All of that said, to each his own. Use whatever you like, and are confident it, regardless of brand. If you don't want to hear negatives about a gun, don't ask questions about it. I've never spoken poorly of a brand of firearm for the sake of it. I've only responded to specific questions. Speaking of "common politeness", I find it impolite when some insecure people pout, because someone said something they didn't want to hear about their gun in response to a question. Now I would agree that there are some few people who make comments when they've had no actual experience with a particular brand, and those should be ignored not whined about.
 
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Well, the Taurus fans should feel a little better now...there is an entire thread devoted to Taurus LOVE. 3 pages and counting, and the so called "bashers" are not allowed to even speak of a problematic Taurus.:eek: Hopefully this will stop all of the whining and name calling.;)
 
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person buys a used sw colt or ruger revolver. it turns out to have sticky chambers. the purchaser says "oh figures, its normal to find so ill just be happy and get my bore brush and portable drill and shine it up. no problem"
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False premise. Reality is more like this:
Person buys a used S&W or Ruger revolver (Colt hasn't made a new revolver in decades, and I have no experience with their revolvers, so I am leaving them out. Others with relevant experfience may comment). It turns out to have sticky chambers. Person contacts S&W/Ruger who pays for shipping both ways and fixes it free of charge.

Person buys a used Charter, Rossi, or Taurus with the same problem and contacts the factory, who says "Send it in". Person pays $60-75 to ship FEDEX. Gun stays for 6 months or so, and as often as not, is returned with problem unresolved.

Regardless of how good a said products is, my local gun shop dropped their entire Taurus line due to bad customer service.
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Not the first shop to do this.

by some dealer accounts, at one point last year Taurus was over the 60% return mark on NIB guns
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If you spend some time reading these forums and talking with gun shop guys and guys at the range (I do) you may find this entirely plausible (I do).
A non-scientific albeit revealing poll about a year ago mirrored this number.
 
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What is wrong with calling a spade a spade? This is a forum for enthusiasts, do you expect them to like low end guns? If you need validation for the choices you made, there are numerous forums devoted to specific manufacturers. They will all pat you on the back and validate your choices. I would prefer to learn from the wisdom and mistakes of others.
 
"Colt hasn't made a new revolver in decades"

Excuse me sir, you put your foot in your mouth. I have purchased them and they still make guns such as the Single Action Army. That's a revolver.

Heck, my father bought a Python in 1990 while they were still in regular production. That's within decades, correct? In fact, the Colt Custom Shop continued to make Pythons until 6 or 7 years ago - 2005.

Cordially yours,

John
 
"Politeness" is the reason why not a single gun reviewer out there has ever identified a dud gun. And the general consensus is that gun reviewers are consequently useless.

My opinion of a product starts with personal experience. I do all the research I can do but I'm only going to bash a product if it has failed me, and usually only if it has done so spectacularly. But my hope would be that if I do bash or praise a product, it helps someone else make a decision. I do not get offended when people bash a product I like. I'll tell my tale, but not to change your mind. I'll tell my tale so another potential consumer has more data to go on. I don't know you. You're a name without a face. I don't care if you hate a product I like. And my feelings will not be hurt. We could do with a little less "politeness" and a little more "objectivity".

The ratings on Amazon are invaluable. I buy a lot of things off Amazon and I am always pleased with my purchases because I read the reviews and try to weed out the outliers. If guns had Amazon ratings, those ratings would be invaluable. And we would surely see Ruger and Colt and S&W with consistent 4-5 stars and Charter and Taurus with 2-3 stars. It just is the way it is. Now if you love your Taurus, that's great. You had a different experience. But there are plenty of people with poor experiences and theirs are just as valid as yours.

But remember, they are not hating or attacking YOU. It's about the product, not the person that bought it....
 
Not only does this apply to any brand of machine, but it can easily extend to sports teams and companies/contractors of any type. It's part of the human condition to have irrational loyalties and prejudices. :o
 
Well, the Taurus fans should feel a little better now...there is an entire thread devoted to Taurus LOVE. 3 pages and counting, and the so called "bashers" are not allowed to even speak of a problematic Taurus. Hopefully this will stop all of the whining and name calling.
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Thank you for advertising my threads . IMHO if you have questions about a firearm I would look for a forum devoted to that maker and ask people there. I think you would get better answers and more honest.
 
MLeake said:
The OP fails to note that the issue is not whether brands have lemons.

The issue is a combination of the rates of lemons that go out of the store (by some dealer accounts, at one point last year Taurus was over the 60% return mark on NIB guns), and the experiences people have dealing with customer service in the event of a problem.

From following this and other forums; from personal experience and the experiences of friends; and from talking with dealers I know (as opposed to ostensible FFLs online whom I do not know), these are the trends I've observed:

S&W gets high marks for QC and CS. So does Colt.

Beretta gets very high marks for QC, but poor marks for CS.

SIG gets fairly high QC, fairly high CS; used to be high-very high in both, but had some hiccups over the last couple years.

Ruger gets high QC and CS. Ruger recalls are normally not held against them, because Ruger tends to be proactive about recalling and repairing problems. That said, I'd wait for the second year of a new Ruger model, but that's me.

Taurus gets consistently poor marks for QC, and despite the "Lifetime Warranty," gets consistently poor marks for CS.

Charter (the old original, and the current iteration, but not the interims) gets good marks for QC and CS.

I haven't read up that much on Rossi.



SO... while S&W does have the occasional lemon (as does Colt, or for that matter Beechcraft, BMW, and Chris Craft), S&W has fewer lemons, and has a better track record for making lemon owners whole, than do the brands the OP is defending.
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My thoughts absolutely. +1.

It's not individual guns. It's the company as a whole. The poster who used the honor roll student getting in trouble versus the screw up getting in trouble nailed it as well.

They may have both egged a teacher's house, but one is objectively and rationally less of a troublemaker, and his offense is probably the exception, not the rule.

SwampYankee said:
The ratings on Amazon are invaluable. I buy a lot of things off Amazon and I am always pleased with my purchases because I read the reviews and try to weed out the outliers. If guns had Amazon ratings, those ratings would be invaluable. And we would surely see Ruger and Colt and S&W with consistent 4-5 stars and Charter and Taurus with 2-3 stars. It just is the way it is. Now if you love your Taurus, that's great. You had a different experience. But there are plenty of people with poor experiences and theirs are just as valid as yours.
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I really liked this, too. I avidly use Amazon and have for years. That total end-user openness regarding quality has saved me many tears.
 
Posted by Kingflabby

Thank you for advertising my threads . IMHO if you have questions about a firearm I would look for a forum devoted to that maker and ask people there. I think you would get better answers and more honest
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Glad I could help, and I'm happy you've been able to find a few dedicated "devotees" who are willing to tickle your ears. Just wish you'd quit accusing everyone else of being dishonest.

I will admit that I think it would be interesting for someone to start like threads for S&W and Ruger to see how they stack-up to your Taurus thread, and to help inform people on what guns have a record of reliability. If I were to guess, I have a feeling that either of the two threads (S&W or Ruger) would be a lot larger than 3 pages in length. They would also probably consist of a larger variety of people posting (instead of the same people posting over and over), and in many cases those people will have owned their guns for a longer period of time (without issue).
 
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IMHO if you have questions about a firearm I would look for a forum devoted to that maker and ask people there. I think you would get better answers and more honest.
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I disagree. It's been my experience that you're much more likely to get unbiased answers on a general firearms forum than from a brand specific forum.

You can certainly get accurate information, particularly detail oriented stuff, on brand specific forums; but when it comes to overall opinion of the particular brand in question, brand specific forums understandably have a tendency to be more positive in their outlook.
 
JohnKSa said:
I disagree. It's been my experience that you're much more likely to get unbiased answers on a general firearms forum than from a brand specific forum.

You can certainly get accurate information, particularly detail oriented stuff, on brand specific forums; but when it comes to overall opinion of the particular brand in question, brand specific forums understandably have a tendency to be more positive in their outlook.
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This has matched my experience exactly. Some brand-specific forums exhibit outright hostility toward complaints, even to the point of deleting threads or attacking those with problems.
 
To the OP I think the general attitude towards Taurus you are seeing is not as much a result of the guns themselves being junk but the companys treatment of customers and horrible record for fixing a problem correctly. This has made a lot of people extremely frustrated. So I can see why a lot of people bash the product. If a gun has a problem and it goes back to the company several times on the customers dime and the problem never gets fixed then people are going to percieve the gun as a piece of junk. On the other hand let's say a S&W has the same problem and has to go back to the factory. This company will pay the shipping and make it as painless as possible for you in every way. They treat you like you are important to them. You will also get your gun back fixed and might have some extra bonus thrown in for your trouble. Just look at the BBB ratings for S&W vs. Taurus. We're talking A+ vs. a solid F. Ruger has a stellar rating too. I don't know about you but I'm a lot less likely to bad talk a product if the company not only makes it right but does it's best to make sure I'm happy. I'm telling you man, there's a lot of people who are very angry at Taurus.
 
I think greasemonkey nails it as well. Look at Beretta. Few will argue against the statement that Beretta makes a first-rate gun, yet they also hold a BBB F. As a Beretta fan, I thought this was hogwash until I actually had to call them with a minor problem (I thought my PX4 locking block tool marks were damage). Holy cow. I'd have thought I was dealing with a company run out of some guy's garage and not the maker of the U.S. military's sidearm. Totally unacceptable. The product is wonderful but the BBB F is deserved. It was a huge part of taking the Nano off my subcompact-nine hunt list and adding the M&P 9c. I sleep easier with a company that cares. As amazing as my PX4 is, I dread the day something goes wrong.

If Taurus ever gets their head in the game, ratchets down on quality control, and treats customers like people, I'll be the first in line for one.
 
I used to work in retail. I was 16. The manager of the store (Service Merchandise, if anyone remembers that now defunct company) told us that an unhappy customer will tell 10 people about his/her crappy experience. And those 10 people were likely to spread the word. A happy customer will tell no more than 3 people, if that. So making customers happy is important but making them unhappy was grounds for firing (or at least being shoved into the warehouse). Ruger and Smith have made their mistakes but they make amends, and we'll all forgive someone who says they are sorry and tries to make it up to us. Taurus, on the other hand, tells everyone to jump off a cliff. Taurus is run by fools. Hence, they have a crappy reputation. And any 16-year-old that worked in retail can tell you that!

By the by, I will never "buy" a Beretta. If you hate your customers, I have no use for you. And my experience has been that they hate everyone but the US Army.
 
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