Ole Nasty....
- Thread starter Keg
- Start date
Double Naught Spy
New member
Hybrid tooth - Bogosity
Oh please, hogdogs, not this garbage again. What you are talking about is in no way an indicator of possible Russian blood lines. We went through this in 2009 and it is no more true now than it was then. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348544&highlight=euro+tooth
You brought it up in that thread and I provided you with considerable information on why the presence or absence of the tooth may occur in pigs and it isn't because of being "Russian." It is because the tooth is vestigial, being lost over time genetically.
I seem to recall challenging you to prove that the tooth was an indicator of bloodline and nothing came from that. If you can prove it, it would be a real feather in your cap given it is a trait that nobody in the wildlife, biology, or veternary sciences is aware of and there are a considerable number of publications on domestic, wild and feral hogs.
By the way, have you noticed that the only references to the hybrid tooth all refer back to the same singluar source? What hog expert studied these hogs and made this unique determination? Do you know? Some online sources refer to your link, but your link and others go refence Texasboars.com and that article is found here ... http://www.texasboars.com/articles/aging.html
You get the same pictures and same text referencing the hybrid tooth as being diagnostic and neither source provides any justification as to how the author learned of this purported trait. It is simply stated as if it is fact from an unnamed source.
The claim is...
Okay, it won't be present in domestic hog skulls. That is stated as a fact, right? So when you find hogs with this trait, you believe it proves that the hog is "Russian" or "Russian hybrid," right?
Here are domestic hog skulls with the tooth.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...lXT9vhHau_2QWk_7T4Dg&ved=0CFUQ9QEwBA&dur=4446
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...8&tbnw=144&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...3&tbnw=186&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...tbnw=193&start=15&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:15
http://www.etsy.com/listing/81789603/domestic-pig-sus-scrofa-domestica
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/pregastric/pigpage.html
So how is it that all these domestic hogs have this tooth? The article says they won't have them. Well the article is WRONG. Texasboars is WRONG.
Now above I referred to the condition of the so-called "hybrid tooth" as being vestigial. Vestigial means it is an anatomical structure that no longer retains its original form or function and often is being lost evolutionarily over time. However, the actual absence of this tooth (or other dental structure) is called oligodontia. Here is a neat little abstract for an article discussing this very issue. You can order the whole article, but the abstract already tells us that the notion of the "hybrid tooth" as diagnostic is bogus.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p335h22227u2023m/
The tooth that you call a "hybrid tooth" is the lower adult P1 (first premolar).
I am afraid, sir, that you have succombed to a 'fact' that is nothing more than an internet myth that appears to have its origins on the Texasboars website for which there is no justification. The notion that this tooth reflects anything at all about bloodline or domesticity, being feral, being wild, or some hybrid thereof is without any merit and should not be used as an indicator of being of Russian, wild Eurasian, or hybrid feral-Russian/wild Eurasian ancestry. Its presence only means that the hog isn't suffering from oligodontia of that tooth.
Oh please, hogdogs, not this garbage again. What you are talking about is in no way an indicator of possible Russian blood lines. We went through this in 2009 and it is no more true now than it was then. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348544&highlight=euro+tooth
You brought it up in that thread and I provided you with considerable information on why the presence or absence of the tooth may occur in pigs and it isn't because of being "Russian." It is because the tooth is vestigial, being lost over time genetically.
I seem to recall challenging you to prove that the tooth was an indicator of bloodline and nothing came from that. If you can prove it, it would be a real feather in your cap given it is a trait that nobody in the wildlife, biology, or veternary sciences is aware of and there are a considerable number of publications on domestic, wild and feral hogs.
By the way, have you noticed that the only references to the hybrid tooth all refer back to the same singluar source? What hog expert studied these hogs and made this unique determination? Do you know? Some online sources refer to your link, but your link and others go refence Texasboars.com and that article is found here ... http://www.texasboars.com/articles/aging.html
You get the same pictures and same text referencing the hybrid tooth as being diagnostic and neither source provides any justification as to how the author learned of this purported trait. It is simply stated as if it is fact from an unnamed source.
The claim is...
Okay, it won't be present in domestic hog skulls. That is stated as a fact, right? So when you find hogs with this trait, you believe it proves that the hog is "Russian" or "Russian hybrid," right?
Here are domestic hog skulls with the tooth.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...lXT9vhHau_2QWk_7T4Dg&ved=0CFUQ9QEwBA&dur=4446
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...8&tbnw=144&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...3&tbnw=186&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...tbnw=193&start=15&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:15
http://www.etsy.com/listing/81789603/domestic-pig-sus-scrofa-domestica
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/pregastric/pigpage.html
So how is it that all these domestic hogs have this tooth? The article says they won't have them. Well the article is WRONG. Texasboars is WRONG.
Now above I referred to the condition of the so-called "hybrid tooth" as being vestigial. Vestigial means it is an anatomical structure that no longer retains its original form or function and often is being lost evolutionarily over time. However, the actual absence of this tooth (or other dental structure) is called oligodontia. Here is a neat little abstract for an article discussing this very issue. You can order the whole article, but the abstract already tells us that the notion of the "hybrid tooth" as diagnostic is bogus.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p335h22227u2023m/
The tooth that you call a "hybrid tooth" is the lower adult P1 (first premolar).
I am afraid, sir, that you have succombed to a 'fact' that is nothing more than an internet myth that appears to have its origins on the Texasboars website for which there is no justification. The notion that this tooth reflects anything at all about bloodline or domesticity, being feral, being wild, or some hybrid thereof is without any merit and should not be used as an indicator of being of Russian, wild Eurasian, or hybrid feral-Russian/wild Eurasian ancestry. Its presence only means that the hog isn't suffering from oligodontia of that tooth.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Well, when you identify it as a hybrid tooth as you did, you are identifying it as a hybrid trait. The thing is, it isn't a possible indicator hog type and it isn't hybrid.
Okay, but it isn't even that.
That's a very nice pig and I am digging the excellent skeletonization result of the skull and mandible.
The questions...
I am continually amazed at folks' proclamations of spotting, catching, and/or killing of hogs that the hogs have some "Russian DNA" or "Russian genes" or "Russian traits" in them. They will usually pick out one or two morphological traits from the animal that match their criteria for what is a Russian hog. Of course, everyone wants to kill Russian hogs as the vast majority of us in the US grew up with or lived throught the Cold War where Russians were the enemy. Not only are Russian hogs the enemy, but are supposed to be meaner and more aggressive and sometimes people will proclaim a hog to have Russian ancestry based just on it being aggressive. When was the last time you can remember someody being quick to point out that the hog they shot had some Norwegian Landrace in it?
What a lot of folks do not understand is that the vast majority of hogs brought into the US have "Russian" ancestry. That is because the domestic pigs of Europe and Asia are domesticated from the Russian/Eurasian wild boars.
This article goes into a log of detail on the difficulties in properly identifying a hog based or morphological and behavioral characteristics. Many of the traits commonly known about Russian/Eurasian, feral, and hybrid distinctions has turned out to be flat our wrong in some cases and often variable in others. It is a neat article, but I have to question where it was that they obtained their pure feral hog population...as if somebody high fenced a few thousand acres and stocked it with domestic hogs and came back 20 years later to find all the original domestic hogs were long dead, but their several generations of offspring turned into pure feral hogs. I don't see that happening or how the researchers would have known if their pure ferals had been contaminated with more domestic or with Russian/Eurasion lines.
http://agrilife.org/texnatwildlife/feral-hogs/distinguishing-feral-hogs-from-introduced-wild-boar/
While the above article indicates skull measurements to be pretty good for diagnostic/identification purposes, this article says the method has problems. Note that the most recent citation in the above article dates back to 1992.
http://www.secem.es/GALEMYS/PDF de Galemys/16 (NE). PDF/001 Genov 9-23_.pdf
Okay, to confound things even further about Keg's hog, hogdogs noted that it looked like a Spanish Black and has noted hogs in his area have Spanish Black blood. What is interesting to note it that Spanish Black (Iberian Black) hogs are thought to be a hybrid of the introduced Mediterranean breed that bred with Eurasian wild boars, but only Keg thought it looked like it has Russian traits. http://bigpictureagriculture.blogspot.com/2011/03/twelve-heritage-pig-breeds.html
So given its history, Keg's possible Spanish Black or Iberian Black hog would be domesticated and Eurasian wild boar hybrid feral hog. How is that for covering all the bases?
And that difference is called clinal size variation.
I am not one who sees a trait on any ol' feral hog and sees a "russian"...
I have seen far too many 400+ pound black hogs that are just BIG HUGE BLACK HOGS... No mane... No shoulders that narrow above the axis point to to be a "blade-esque" shape rising above the top of the level hog head...
Slightly tipped hairs say "feral domestic cross"... but half the length of hair being a different color is very much common in eurasian swine.
As for size... hogs will grow... We have pockets of feral domestics that easily hold many large 250-350 pound brood animals... Other pockets seem to top out around 200-250 with a 300 being an anomaly...
Fighters??? Some of the more "docile" catches I have had dogs in were the ones seeming more russian than others... and I am still waiting for a pig with more fight than those young 150# black pigs I mention...
Brent
I have seen far too many 400+ pound black hogs that are just BIG HUGE BLACK HOGS... No mane... No shoulders that narrow above the axis point to to be a "blade-esque" shape rising above the top of the level hog head...
Slightly tipped hairs say "feral domestic cross"... but half the length of hair being a different color is very much common in eurasian swine.
As for size... hogs will grow... We have pockets of feral domestics that easily hold many large 250-350 pound brood animals... Other pockets seem to top out around 200-250 with a 300 being an anomaly...
Fighters??? Some of the more "docile" catches I have had dogs in were the ones seeming more russian than others... and I am still waiting for a pig with more fight than those young 150# black pigs I mention...
Brent
Wild Boar Facts: Wild Boar Skin and Coat
59. The skin of wild boar is very thick, with pads of subcutaneuos adipose tissue but very little blood supply. It is in effect an armour virtually rendering the boar immune to insect or viper bites (unless attacked in more vulnerable points), or punctures from spiney plants within the woods in which it lives.
60. The boar is nearly completely covered (with the exception of parts of the head and the lower parts of the legs) with rigid bristles.
61. These bristles, mixed with a finer and softer fur undercoat, enable the animal to thermally isolate its body from external temperatures.
62. On the forehead and shoulders the boars mantle forms a type of mane, more evident on some sub-species than others.
63. When the animal is irritated or frightened the mane becomes straightened, rendering the appearance of the boar larger and more solid than reality.
64. The boars winter coat is thick ("folto") and dark in colour.
65. During the spring months the majority of the undercoat and bristles are shed and the boar takes on a lighter colour.
66. The general colour of a boars coat varies according to population and region. The colour ranges from tawny-brown to grey-black.
67. Whitish, although not albino, boar have been known to occur in central Asia. In western Russia ther are many red boar, and in Manchuria there are many examples of nearly black boar.
68. Very rarely (about three boar in every 100 years) adult boars with large and dark mantles are recorded. Such boar are mutations from the more recent crossing of boar with domestic pigs.
Just something I found on boar in Europe/Asia.....
59. The skin of wild boar is very thick, with pads of subcutaneuos adipose tissue but very little blood supply. It is in effect an armour virtually rendering the boar immune to insect or viper bites (unless attacked in more vulnerable points), or punctures from spiney plants within the woods in which it lives.
60. The boar is nearly completely covered (with the exception of parts of the head and the lower parts of the legs) with rigid bristles.
61. These bristles, mixed with a finer and softer fur undercoat, enable the animal to thermally isolate its body from external temperatures.
62. On the forehead and shoulders the boars mantle forms a type of mane, more evident on some sub-species than others.
63. When the animal is irritated or frightened the mane becomes straightened, rendering the appearance of the boar larger and more solid than reality.
64. The boars winter coat is thick ("folto") and dark in colour.
65. During the spring months the majority of the undercoat and bristles are shed and the boar takes on a lighter colour.
66. The general colour of a boars coat varies according to population and region. The colour ranges from tawny-brown to grey-black.
67. Whitish, although not albino, boar have been known to occur in central Asia. In western Russia ther are many red boar, and in Manchuria there are many examples of nearly black boar.
68. Very rarely (about three boar in every 100 years) adult boars with large and dark mantles are recorded. Such boar are mutations from the more recent crossing of boar with domestic pigs.
Just something I found on boar in Europe/Asia.....
Pure European Hogs
As of 2008, RBL entered the pure European hog business. This new line of animals comes from Brutal Boar Creactions owned by Cody Weiser of Hallettsville, Texas. His stock is believed to be the best bloodline in the U.S.
We will have young stocker pigs for sale, as well as trophy boars when available. This bloodline is known for large tusks and the ability to acheive tremendous size. These monsters will make great wall mounts to add to your collection. They will test the skills of even the best boar hunters.
Every ranch has wild hogs, but not many have the pure European giants that we can provide. Let your ranch be one of the first to offer world class boars to its hunters.
This boar is of European ancestry....(notice..no mane)
As of 2008, RBL entered the pure European hog business. This new line of animals comes from Brutal Boar Creactions owned by Cody Weiser of Hallettsville, Texas. His stock is believed to be the best bloodline in the U.S.
We will have young stocker pigs for sale, as well as trophy boars when available. This bloodline is known for large tusks and the ability to acheive tremendous size. These monsters will make great wall mounts to add to your collection. They will test the skills of even the best boar hunters.
Every ranch has wild hogs, but not many have the pure European giants that we can provide. Let your ranch be one of the first to offer world class boars to its hunters.
This boar is of European ancestry....(notice..no mane)
Attachments
This is gonna take some research as it seems little true facts exist on the internet. Many accounts maybe true but its pretty watered down for hunting interests.
The pig in hogdogs pic that I referenced is the closest thing to the pigs I seen wild in German forests. Weather or not Russian pigs look the same I have no clue, never seen any in their homeland.
The pig in hogdogs pic that I referenced is the closest thing to the pigs I seen wild in German forests. Weather or not Russian pigs look the same I have no clue, never seen any in their homeland.
Rick..It's really not hard to find pics from Europe and Asia......They don't all look alike....Some have manes..some don't....different colors and coats....different coats.....I even found that there are different sub-species....I used to just kill pigs..(I have been more into deer management)..but look at whitetail in Florida..Texas..Canada....They look a little different.....
Used to..a pig was a pig....I wish I had taken pics and kept them yrs ago....
Do striped baby pigs mean anything?
Used to..a pig was a pig....I wish I had taken pics and kept them yrs ago....
Do striped baby pigs mean anything?
BigMikey76
New member
I don't get it... why would selling hogs to stock your property for hunting make any sense in a state that is, by all accounts I have seen, over run with swine already
BigMikey76
New member
Seems to me there ought to be a law against bringing in more of an animal that is already a nuiscance... wouldn't it probably be cheaper for them to round up some of the local feral beasties and let the tourists shoot them? I doubt the "big city lawyers" would even know the difference...