Official NRA critic's thread (NO NRA BASHING DANG IT)

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Missed one: Gun-totin' liberals. We can't stomach giving money to an organization that almost exclusively supports candidates from a party whose views (aside from gun control) are diametrically opposed to our own. We instead look for other avenues with which to defend our second amendment rights.

Then you really need to look closer. There are more than a couple Democrats who have been given high marks and support from the NRA. If more Democrats supported the Second Ammendment then the NRA would support them. Look at many of the new house memebers and you will see several of them had positive ratings from the NRA going into the election. This is even more so on the state level. Here in NY they have always supported Ginny Fields, a Democrat who also has worked hard in the State Assembly to protect 2A rights and palces to shoot.

There are certainly more 2A Republicans than Democrats and the NRA is all about the 2A so don't expect them to send money to a Democrat who is anti 2A but you cannot make the case that they ONLY support Republicans. Many times, especially in NY, they give very poor marks to Republicans. Does anybody think that the NRA would support Guliani or Bloomberg simply because they are Republicans?
 
Then you really need to look closer. There are more than a couple Democrats who have been given high marks and support from the NRA. If more Democrats supported the Second Ammendment then the NRA would support them. Look at many of the new house memebers and you will see several of them had positive ratings from the NRA going into the election.

Yes, I know that many Democrats are given high marks from the NRA. However, I know that in at least one state (mine) a pro-gun Democrat was rewarded for his stance on the 2A by an ad run in many local papers for his (to be fair, equally pro-gun) opponent. Guess what: they didn't do that with one penny of my money.

If the NRA started taking neutral stances in races where both candidates are equally pro-gun, I might consider joining. Until then, they won't get a cent from me.
 
If their was no gun control then why would their be a need for the NRA, I think they realise this.
And if the NRA wasn’t effective at combatting gun control, it wouldn’t be supported.

Actually, fighting gun control is the job of the NRA-ILA.

The NRA itself is involved with promoting gun safety through education, firearms training, and the shooting sports. Without that, I have no doubt there would be many more “incidents” and the part of the public that clamors for gun control would be more numerous and more vocal.

Those who would have us quit the NRA because they don’t understand the benefit would do well to propose a better alternative and explain why we shouldn’t maintain our membership at the same time as their master solution takes hold.

Otherwise, I will perceive it as a very thinly veiled attempt to weaken the NRA as a means of enhancing gun control. Speaking of which, just the fact that we get folks posting messages asking us to abandon the NRA confirms the fear the grabbers have for it.
 
Not knocking, just asking

I am not knocking the NRA or criticizing by asking the following. I am wanting to try to find out why they did the following.

The NRA rated Congressman Ron Paul from Texas, lower than perfect in their scoring for his voting record.

No individual elected to government office (with the single exception of Patrick Henry) ever proved his dedication to the second amendment more demonstrably than Ron Paul.

Yet the NRA gave him, (the incumbent in office who has proven his dedication to the 2nd Amendment with his votes time and time again) only a "B" rating and his opponent an "A" rating. When you read the criteria listed to explain the ratings, it flies in the face of historical fact about Ron Paul.

How is the NRA going to be trusted in the future to honestly report the voting records of incumbents, if they continue to screw over Independant minded Congressional and Senatorial candidates?

(By the way, this is a FACT and not a "conspiracy theory." The NRA ILA voter guide listed him with a "B" rating)

PS. We are NRA contributors and member.
 
The NRA rated Congressman Ron Paul from Texas, lower than perfect in their scoring for his voting record.

No individual elected to government office (with the single exception of Patrick Henry) ever proved his dedication to the second amendment more demonstrably than Ron Paul.

Except on one issue... Mr. Paul did not support the legislation to protect the Gun Industry against nuisance lawsuits. The attempts by cities like NY, Chicago and elsewhere to sue gun manufacturers and dealers out of existence due to a crime commited with one of the weapons they made or sold was and is VERY REAL. Such practices stood to bankrupt the entire gun industry in the USA if left unchecked. It is all well and good to support your 2A rights but if he sits back and lets every shop that you could buy a gun from be driven out of business and have every manufacturer sued out of existence exactly what are you going to exercise your 2A rights with?

Mr. Paul is good on all other aspects of the 2A, and is a far cry better than many other politicians, but his opposition to this legislation justifiably impacted his rating with the NRA.

It is not enough to simply have the 2A if the governemnt can tax it out of existence or allow judicial terrorists to utilize the courts to drive legitimate businesses under and make the right impossible for many to exercise.
 
Missed one: Gun-totin' liberals. We can't stomach giving money to an organization that almost exclusively supports candidates from a party whose views (aside from gun control) are diametrically opposed to our own. We instead look for other avenues with which to defend our second amendment rights.
You have good reasons to not join, I respect your choice.

Some of us are more single-issue (like me). I believe that in balance, both parties are fairly similar on non-RKBA issues and therefore, for me, it comes down to RKBA. I also have some issues with the fact that I perceive the Dems are pushing us towards socialism and authoritarianism faster than the Repubs, but that's another thread.

I don’t have a problem with pro-gun folks not being members. There are many folks here or on THR who do much more for RKBA on their own than by what they accomplish as a single member of the NRA. I’m thinking of people like BlackManWithAGun and Helmetcase. I would also include people like Rich and Oleg who provide these forums. Also, a lot of the old-timers who pretty much dedicated their lives to RKBA (I miss CR Sam).

What riles me is for someone to come onto this site (admittedly, not my site) and try and tell me that because they don’t like the NRA, that I should terminate my membership.
 
Prove it!

The NRA exists to perpetuate the NRA and nothing else.

This is a platitude/bumper sticker statement. Please give evidence, list the examples you have considered to lead you to this conclusion. Just tossing out a statement like this does nothing to disseminate information or influence those who actually consider evidence before making a decision.

Who knows, you may convice me.

Regards,
dahermit
NRA life member
 
"Missed one: Gun-totin' liberals."

Well, all I can say is...I hope we don't lose our gun-toting rights somehow.

Then you'd be a gunless-liberal.

I wish you'd reconsider and join the fight.

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Endowment Member
 
Musketeer: You wrote about Ron Paul the following in part..
Except on one issue... Mr. Paul did not support the legislation to protect the Gun Industry against nuisance lawsuits.

I am going to list below, his floor speech in opposition, as to why he felt the law would not be Constitutional, and ask that you consider what he said, and see if you believe the NRA was justified in lowering his grade rating.

I don't think it honestly represents his 2nd Amendment defense stance at all.

Here it is:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul91.html

Gun Rights vs. Centralization
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
Ron Paul in the US House of Representatives, April 9, 2003
Mr. Speaker, I rise today as a firm believer in the Second amendment and an opponent of all federal gun laws. In fact, I have introduced legislation, the Second Amendment Restoration Act (HR 153), which repeals misguided federal gun control laws such as the Brady Bill and the assault weapons ban. I believe the Second amendment is one of the foundations of our constitutional liberties. However, Mr. Speaker, another foundation of those liberties is the oath all of us took to respect constitutional limits on federal power. While I understand and sympathize with the goals of the proponents of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (HR 1036), this bill exceeds those constitutional limitations, and so I must oppose it.
It is long past time for Congress to recognize that not every problem requires a federal solution. This country's founders understood the need to separate power between federal, state, and local governments to maximize individual liberty and make government most responsive to citizens. The reservation of most powers to the states strictly limited the role of the federal government in dealing with civil liability matters; it reserved jurisdiction over matters of civil tort, such as alleged gun-related negligence suits, to the state legislatures.
While I am against the federalization of tort reform, I must voice my complete disapproval of the very nature of these suits brought against gun manufacturers. Lawsuits for monetary damages from gun violence should be filed against the perpetrators of those crimes, not gun manufacturers! Holding manufacturers liable for harm they could neither foresee nor prevent is irresponsible and outlandish. The company that makes a properly functioning product in accordance with the law is acting lawfully, and thus should not be taken to court because of misuse by the purchaser (or in many cases, by a criminal who stole the weapon). Clearly these lawsuits are motivated not by a concern for justice, but by a search for deep pockets and a fanatical anti-gun political agenda.
However, Mr. Speaker, the most disturbing aspect of these lawsuits is the idea that guns, which are inanimate objects, are somehow responsible for crimes. HR 1036 shifts the focus away from criminals and their responsibility for their actions. It adds to the cult of irresponsibility that government unfortunately so often promotes. This further erodes the ethics of individual responsibility for one's own actions that must form the basis of a free and moral society. The root problem of violence is not the gun in the hand, but the gun in the heart: each person is accountable for the deeds that flow out of his or her own heart. One can resort to any means available to commit a crime, such as knives, fertilizer, pipes, or baseball bats. Should we start suing the manufacturers of these products as well because they are used in crimes? Of course not – the implications are preposterous.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would remind my fellow supporters of gun rights that using unconstitutional federal powers to restrict state gun lawsuits makes it more likely those same powers will be used to restrict our gun rights. Despite these lawsuits, the number one threat to gun ownership remains a federal government freed of its constitutional restraints. Expanding that government in any way, no matter how just the cause may seem, is not in the interests of gun owners or lovers of liberty.
In conclusion, while I share the concern over the lawsuits against gun manufacturers, which inspired HR 1036, this bill continues the disturbing trend toward federalization of tort law. Enhancing the power of the federal government is not in the long-term interests of defenders of the Second amendment and other constitutional liberties. Therefore, I must oppose this bill.
Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
 
Gary Conner,

I knew Mr. Paul's Constitutional reasons for not supporting the legislation and while I disagree with him I respect that he is at least making a Consitutional argument. I still believe the NRA was justified in lowering his grade.

The law in question was critical to the protection of our ability to enact the 2A. There are also grounds with regards to National Security for the law. The loss of all domestic private arms producers would greatly inhibit our armed forces. Leaving the lawsuit loophole open would result in a method through which government (NYC, Chicago and others) could effectively strip the 2A rigths from not only their own residents but every citizen in the USA.

While Mr. Paul may have had a nobel reason for opposing the legislation his reasoning is meaningless if it resulted in the end of domestic firearms manufacturing and sales. The importance of this legislation to the 2A and the NRA was never in doubt and Mr. Paul casted what I and others consider a Bad Vote.

His opponent on the other hand is just as supportive of the 2A AND supports the legislation in question. I really do not see the problem with what the NRA did. He was still honenslty highly rated and people could be confident that whoever won was at least pro 2A.
 
"and an organization that DOESN'T favor "Vermont/Alaska" carry"

Where does this statement come from? I cannot find any evidence to support it on the NRA-ILA web site:

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=18

Tim
Um dude, it comes from nra's LACK of effort to even ENCOURAGE in a specific way "Vermont/Alaska" carry. Really, you've never noticed this? I've run across gun owners who at the local level have watched nra torpedo support for "Vermont/Alaska" carry, or let it wither on the vine in states where it could have and should have passed like Wyoming.

FURTHERMORE, here's an instance where nra was caught red handed opposing the principles of 2nd amendment carry (which they removed quickly when they were caught, but it still speaks to the CULTURE at the nra):


I'd be perfectly willing to forgive what happened in the above pic, but for me to do that, I'm gonna need to see nra start to push "Vermont/Alaska" carry in states where it would pass. Jeez, at LEAST I wish nra would try to get the fees reduced and expiration dates eliminated for carry permits. It appeared/appears that Indiana creating lifetime permits, and Alaska going "Vermont," was the result of a few hard core "tin foil" legislators and not the result of nra pushing it. Nra showed up afterwards to celebrate as loud as they could, but that's about it. Good legislators came up with these ideas and pushed them through pretty much without the nra's lobbyists pushing these things for years on end.
 
Those who would have us quit the NRA because they don’t understand the benefit would do well to propose a better alternative and explain why we shouldn’t maintain our membership at the same time as their master solution takes hold.

Otherwise, I will perceive it as a very thinly veiled attempt to weaken the NRA as a means of enhancing gun control. Speaking of which, just the fact that we get folks posting messages asking us to abandon the NRA confirms the fear the grabbers have for it.
False logic is SOO entertaining. Yea dude, everyone who questions the nra is actually a guy in Sarah Brady drag sent on a mission from her offices
roflwithfeet6ys.gif


EDIT: I run into that "logic" CONSTANTLY on the Canadian pro gun forums. If you want a good laugh, go to http://www.canadiangunnutz.com and post CONSTRUCTIVE new ideas, and/or be critical of the pro registration attitude of the "pro gunners" up there, and your head will SPIN as several of them show up to call you "Wendy" (Wendy Culkier is their incarnation of Sarah Brady).
 
I haven't read the posts yet since I feel it will mostly be stuff I have heard before. I wanted to post first before I allowed myself to be lead astray.

I cannot really fault the NRA for backing some anti-firearm legislation. Mainly because I do not know thw whole story. If by conceding on something like an automatic weapons ban (that will affect so small few of American gun owners) in exchange for a promise of good CCW laws or promise from legislatures to not propose a far more wide reaching anti-gun law they were able to help keep really restictive gun laws off the books when it appeared they may have passed then I feel they did the right thing. Sometimes when you can't win you have to make a deal with the devil in order to chose the lesser of two evils.

The one thing I do wish the NRA would do is start reaching across the isle and start being a bipartisan organization. They have appeared to be a republican mouth piece for so long that non-republican gun owners want nothing to do with them. I feel that is why the majority of gun owners do not belong and past members do not rejoin. There are good pro-gun dems out there and when the NRA always chooses the pro-gun republican over the pro-gun democrat it makes them look like a partisan political organization.

The vast majority of Americans are not republicans, and since I feel gun ownership transcends political beliefs I would have to assume that the vast majority of gun owners are also not republican.
 
"Um dude, it comes from nra's LACK of effort to even ENCOURAGE in a specific way "Vermont/Alaska" carry."

Your original post said the NRA "DOESN'T favor "Vermont/Alaska" carry", but now you are saying that they "fail to encourage" it. These are not logically the same. The NRA also fails to encourage kids to play dodgeball, but that doesn't mean they disfavor it.

BTW, you *do* realize the NRA has bigger fish to fry than trying to get Vermont-style carry everywhere, right?

Tim
 
I think there needs to be on-going open, honest, and serious discussion of how we turn the NRA from an organization that didn't see a vote for the 1968 gca as an anti gun vote, and an organization that DOESN'T favor "Vermont/Alaska" carry, and an organization that refuses to acknowledge the 1986 ban (I only ever see nra talk about the 1934 NFA, which they also supported...

First... for many of the reader's this paragragh is esoteric and means nothing to them... So, I suggest you explain what each "Act" is and what it means... I'm a little unsure of it as well...

Second... Please qualify the "accusations" or assumptions with, at least a little, source and evidenciary information...

Then perhaps we can have the "ongoing open, honest, and serious discussion" that you seek...
(NO NRA BASHING DANG IT)
It seems that there are still bashers... and basher-bashers and basher-bashers-bashers...

WHO CANNOT READ!!!!

DISCUSS HOW TO IMPROVE THE NRA... NOT WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT!!!


GOOD EXAMPLE... "I think the NRA would do well to make better use of the money we send them by spending it on this or that..." :)

BAD EXAMPLE... "I think the NRA is wasteful with our money and they should be hung by their thumbs until they agree with me..." :(

If you cannot be a positive contributor... don't contribute...

Suggest something that might work... or get the hell off this man's damned good attempt to generate a
MATURE discussion!
 
BTW, you *do* realize the NRA has bigger fish to fry than trying to get Vermont-style carry everywhere, right?
:eek: :eek:

I never expected a response like THAT. "Bigger fish to fry" than COMPLETING the restoration of the 2nd amendment WHERE it's possible. Wow, like I said, I never expected a comment like THAT.
 
"COMPLETING the restoration of the 2nd amendment WHERE it's possible."

And where do you think it's possible? In which states, this year or next let's say - the near future. If it's not possible then why not go to work on achieving what is possible instead of drawing a line in the sand and saying if we can't have it all then we'll take nothing. I understand that you never expected a comment like that. Maybe a reassessment of your understanding of the political reality of the situation is in order.

John
 
Official NRA critic's thread (NO NRA BASHING DANG IT)

The NRA sends us emails weekly it seems selling this product or that. Most seem rather high priced. I would like to see caps, shirts, jackets, coats and similar products at very reasonable prices. Simply because if things were very reasonable lots more would be sold therefore you would see the NRA logo on more bodies in more places. The public seeing the logo more would be likely knowingly be talking to members more, helping all gun owners. IMHO.

I use to wear a NRA cap quite a bit I received from a yearly membership. This last year I finished paying for my life membership. I didn't get a cap that I would be proud to wear. I should buy one but just haven't gotten around to it. What I am getting at is if some of the moneys spent in mailing or whatever went to caps etc for the membership you'd see more in public. This would surely be a good thing.
 
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