Obama and Guns: Two Different Views

Silver Bullet

New member
From http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,347690,00.html

By John R. Lott, Jr.

Something happens to Democrats on the gun issue when they run for president. For John Kerry during 2004, it was awkwardly posing in brand new hunting gear at a seemingly endless series of hunting photo-ops.

But in what will probably be the most improbable change, the Politico reported on Saturday that Barack Obama was making a big play for gun votes in Pennsylvania. It is not particularly surprising that this change is occurring with the crucial Pennsylvania primary soon approaching.

With about one million of the country’s 12.5 million hunters, Pennsylvania is number one in the nation in the amount of time its citizens spend hunting. With about 600,000 people with permits to carry concealed handguns, Pennsylvania also has more permit holders than any other state.

Others, such as Jim Kessler, vice president for policy with Third Way, a progressive think tank, view Obama as starting to position himself for the general election.

Yet, it should be a hard sell.

Obama has consistently supported gun control legislation that came up while he was in the Illinois state legislature and the U.S. Senate.
For example, when Obama ran for the Illinois state senate the political group, Independent Voters of Illinois (IVI), asked him if he supported a “ban [on] the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns” and he responded “yes.”

Realizing how damaging this could prove in the general election, his presidential campaign “flatly denied” Obama ever held this view, blaming it instead on a staffer from his state senate race.

But then IVI provided Politico the questionnaire with Obama’s own handwritten notes revising another answer. Members of IVI’s board of directors, some of whom have worked on Obama’s past campaigns, told Politico that “I always believed those to be his views, what he really believes in, and he’s tailoring it now to make himself more palatable as a nationwide candidate.”

But the IVI questionnaire isn’t the only one out there.

In 1998, another questionnaire administered by IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test didn’t ask about banning all handguns, but it did find that Obama wanted to “ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.”

Indeed, such a ban would outlaw virtually all handguns and the vast majority of rifles sold in the United States.

In addition, from 1998 to 2001, Obama was on the board of directors for the Joyce Foundation, which funded such anti-gun groups as the Violence Policy Center, the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, and Handgun Free America. Both the Violence Policy Center and Handgun Free America, as its name suggests, are in favor of a complete ban on handguns. During his tenure on the board, the Joyce Foundation was probably the major funder of pro-control research in the United States.

In fact, I knew Obama during the mid-1990s, and his answers to IVI’s question on guns fit well with the Obama that I knew. Indeed, the first time I introduced myself to him he said “Oh, you are the gun guy.”
I responded “Yes, I guess so.” He simply responded that “I don’t believe that people should be able to own guns.”

When I said it might be fun to talk about the question sometime and about his support of the city of Chicago’s lawsuit against the gun makers, he simply grimaced and turned away, ending the conversation.

If taken literally, Obama’s statement to me was closer to what the IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test found, indicating that Obama's bans would extend well beyond handguns.

Obama also opposes the current laws in 48 states that let citizens carry concealed handguns for protection claiming, despite all the academic studies to the contrary, that "I think that creates a potential atmosphere where more innocent people could (get shot during) altercations."

Even Hillary Clinton disagrees with him on this.

The Obama campaign’s strategy largely follows 2003 surveys produced by Democratic pollster Mark Penn showing that if Democrats didn't show "respect for the 2nd Amendment and support gun safety," voters would presume that they were anti-gun. "The formula for Democrats," according to Penn, "is to say that they support the 2nd Amendment, but that they want tough laws that close loopholes. This is something [Democrats] can run on and win on."

It was the same strategy that all the Democratic presidential candidates seemed to follow in 2004.

Earlier this year, Karlyn Bowman at the American Enterprise Institute said: “The Clinton and Obama campaigns know the public opinion data on the issue well. . . . the right to be able to own a gun seems to be firmly held, and I think that's why both candidates say what they say."

In practice, saying that Obama now believes that the Second Amendment means that there is an individual right to own guns doesn’t mean anything if it can’t even prevent guns from being banned. And even today, despite the pressure from the Pennsylvania primary, Obama is unwilling to state that DC’s or Chicago’s ban on guns are unconstitutional.

Obama’s website only recognizes two legitimate purposes for civilian ownership of guns: “hunting and target shooting.” The notion that people might want to protect themselves when the police are not around isn’t something that he sees as legitimate.

On both his Iraq and trade policies, Obama has already faced the embarrassing situations where his top advisors have had to tell people in other countries not to worry because he doesn’t believe what he is telling American voters.

With guns, it sure looks like Obama is again telling voters what they want to hear, not what he plans on doing.
 
Each party has things its candidates consistently lie about.

For Republicans, it is gay marriage and abortion.

For Democrats, it is guns.

I would never vote for Obama but at least he is not a war monger.
 
It is the age old story of the wealthy, higher-ups, and privileged people of this nation thinking they need to dictate what us "common" folk should have or do. Meanwhile, they themselves wouldn't think of going without or changing their lives because they have special needs compared to the rest of us. How many Hollywood types who advocate gun control for the masses do you think actually own guns themselves or at least have armed guards at times? The politicians and other privileged types always think they can dictate the lives of others because they know they won't have to go without themselves. In the USSR, the people drank mind numbing vodka while the leading party members ate caviar.

Other than that, I don't have an opinion. :D

Fly
 
Obama's true stance on guns.

Silver Bullet, Great post.

We should reference this post every time someone tries to tell us that Obama is not really anti-gun. Lately, when confronted with the facts, Obama supporters come up with two basic arguments:

1) Obama is not really against gun ownership.....target shooting, hunting.

2) Don't worry if he is elected because as President he probably will not get gun legislation to pass. And he will never be able to get a really liberal Supreme Court justice passed if there is a vacancy.

Both arguments are total BS.

I have said it before. Can you imagine Obama begging Ted Kennedy to introduce a new gun control bill, and Teddy is saying to Obama "no, no, I can't...please don't make me do that".:barf:
 
We should reference this post every time someone tries to tell us that Obama is not really anti-gun.

When's the last time somebody tried to tell you that Obama isn't really anti-gun?

A link would be preferable.
 
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287953

This is a good place to start. A lot of reading, but I am not going to find list each subtle message. The message by some liberal gun owners is clear to me. They do own guns but it's much more important to them to elect Obama, despite his anit-gun stance. And yes, you will see the argument that the President can't really do much about gun control.

As far as every time we are told. In my case I am not only talking about this forum, but the other gun forums I participate in. I think the OP link is good info for any gun forum.

Another good link.
http://townhall.com/Columnists/Column.aspx?ContentGuid=036f80b4-64d2-4930-882b-f2a055373f4a
 
People keep trying to read a support of guns (even if only a hunting-only understanding) into Obama. The man really IS the "Rorschach Candidate," since he is more than willing to let people read into him whatever they want to find.

That is highly dangerous.

All we know for sure about any candidate is what they have said and done in the past. We talk often about how promises are broken. So we cannot trust them about what they say about the future. All we can do is look at their record. Obama's record on the RKBA is hideous.

Saying "at least he isn't a warmonger" is only partly correct. He isn't likely to get us into conflict with other nations, but he sure as hell will wage war on our right to defend ourselves and on our right to keep what we earn.

Anybody trying to rationalize a vote for Obama based on what they think he will or can do in office instead of what he has done in his career is a fool.
 
Saying "at least he isn't a warmonger" is only partly correct. He isn't likely to get us into conflict with other nations, but he sure as hell will wage war on our right to defend ourselves and on our right to keep what we earn.

Right, I was just kidding with my other post. Mentioning he is not a warmonger is just a way to deflect from the point at hand...he is anti-gun.

One more good link.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9398.html

Obama’s approach is similar to one advocated by Third Way, which issued a seven-step blueprint in 2006 to close the “gun gap” with Republicans. In a memo on its website, the group urges progressives to avoid silence on gun issues, and instead “redefine the issue in a way that appeals to gun owning voters.”

It ain't working.
 
Is it just me, or is the only thing that Obama has to say besides the endless and boring mantra "change" is that he opposes 2nd amendment rights? It makes me sick how many stupid Americans think that this is a brilliant political platform.

Pennsylvania is number one in the nation in the amount of time its citizens spend hunting.
They need to hunt faster. :D
 
Anybody trying to rationalize a vote for Obama based on what they think he will or can do in office instead of what he has done in his career is a fool.

I agree and have no intention of voting for Obama, but I do have to ask myself, who would do the most harm to the country long term: Obama, who would undoubtedly wage war on the 2nd Amendment, probably unsuccessfully, or McCain, who will wage war on other rights, probably with more success.
 
I agree and have no intention of voting for Obama, but I do have to ask myself, who would do the most harm to the country long term: Obama, who would undoubtedly wage war on the 2nd Amendment, probably unsuccessfully, or McCain, who will wage war on other rights, probably with more success.

Just my opinion, but if you take out the "no intention" part and start with the "I have to ask" part, then it sounds like you think Obama would be a better choice. Just my read.
 
We should reference this post every time someone tries to tell us that Obama is not really anti-gun.
When's the last time somebody tried to tell you that Obama isn't really anti-gun?
This is a good place to start. A lot of reading, but I am not going to find list each subtle message. The message by some liberal gun owners is clear to me. They do own guns but it's much more important to them to elect Obama, despite his anti-gun stance.
So I'll assume you've got nothing, then? I've not seen anybody here claim Obama isn't anti-gun...and it appears you haven't either. So you won't be referencing that post much, eh?

I've not seen any real claims out in "the world" that he's not anti-gun, either. At least not if you understand the language of the debate among the general public. He's quite obviously, honestly, and clearly for relatively restrictive gun laws.
 
I've not seen anybody here claim Obama isn't anti-gun...and it appears you haven't either

There may be nothing claiming Obama isn't anti-gun, but there are many which minimize his anti-2A stance. And there are many posts which compare him to Sen. McCain on 2A issues, claiming that Obama is no worse than McCain. That in itself is totally ridiculous, but some here seem to believe it.
 
And there are many posts which compare him to Sen. McCain on 2A issues, claiming that Obama is no worse than McCain. That in itself is totally ridiculous, but some here seem to believe it.

Ah, yes. This I'll agree with. I'll also agree that many (including myself) try to minimize the likely effect of his stance on guns (rather than the stance itself). But it's not like there's some conspiracy of liberals trying to paint Obama as a gun rights supporter or anything, which is how madmag was making it sound. Or at least if there is, they've been failing miserably anyway.

Also, I suspect that most of those who try to equate Obama and McCain's gun positions are just supporters of other Republican candidates (a couple in particular) who are just bitter that their candidate lost the nomination.
 
I agree and have no intention of voting for Obama, but I do have to ask myself, who would do the most harm to the country long term: Obama, who would undoubtedly wage war on the 2nd Amendment, probably unsuccessfully, or McCain, who will wage war on other rights, probably with more success.

Just which rights do you think will be able to restore later? For example, name one federal gun law that has been actively repealed- not just sunset, but actively repealed. Not one. Congress is currently led by the extremely anti-gun leftist wing of the Democrat Party. I think voting for Obama in the hopes that he'll be ineffective is misguided- if you think any of the rest of his platform will pass, why not a gun control part?

McCain isn't a picnic either, but you can just as easily say that his assaults on other rights won't be successful. I'd be more inclined to believe that- his party isn't running Congress right now. Besides, I'd also anticipate Obama would be pretty antagonistic to those same rights too, only in the name of being "inoffensive" to certain groups instead of in the name of national security. He'll chip away at the same bricks, just on a different corner.
 
Just which rights do you think will be able to restore later?

None. And the liberals know this.


Are there any liberals saying "obama is anti-gun, so don't vote him"...no not directly. But there defiantly is a not so subtle message that it's OK to vote for Obama, and that he is really not anit-gun. It's clear that most here do understand that attempt by Obama supporters to soften the blow. My real concern is that the general public needs to understand Obama's real message, not his pretend gun friendly front that he is trying to put over.
 
It's important to SPREAD THE WORD about Obama's gun views. There really are some gun owners who don't know about him or believe his lies. And they are lies. Damn lies.
 
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