NY Cops

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From what I've read, here, there and everywhere regarding this shooting, I'd opine that most everyone here, if they were the initial LEO who witnessed the encounter outside the club, who saw the players involved, who heard the reference to getting a gun, who foresaw some type of imminent illegal action involving gunfire and inebriated heated words... would probably try to head 'em off at the pass and call up backup in an attempt to stop any forthcoming wanton violence.

Ironic, ain't it? Sometimes one's mouth writes a check that one's derrieire cannot cash and sometimes the person you try to run over is an undercover Cop and sometimes the van you crash into is full of fellow undercover Cops... and that can ruin your whole day... or life.

I've got no problem with the bullets that found their mark. It's the other 6 outa 10+/- that sorta concern me. Time to run some more NYPD field of fire courses focusing on getting 99% of fire on target.
 
No amount of training can prepare you for a real encounter. Even the best shot at the range is a dismal shot on the street. Paper targets don't shoot back. By the way, NYPD cops shoot 300 rounds a year for qualifications.
 
No amount of training can prepare you for a real encounter. Even the best shot at the range is a dismal shot on the street. Paper targets don't shoot back.
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True, but its important to note that the deceased here wasn't shooting back either. And as baba Louie mentioned, all those errant rounds went somewhere. Seems to me any danger posed to the community by a couple inebriated kids at a bachelor party pales in comparison to the danger posed by all those rounds being fired almost blindly in a densely populated area such as Queens. The smart thing would have been to get out of the way of the vehicle and call for backup. Its Queens - no one is going anywhere fast.

Also important to note (because I haven't seen it mentined here) is that the undercovers in the establishment were drinking. NYPD policy does allow for up to 2 drinks to be consumed, and those officers left their weapons outside, but it begs the question might their perception of events have been clouded by their own alcohol consumption? (And FWIW, since when is mixing alcohol and firearms a good idea?)
 
NYPD allows undercover officers doing surveilance in a bar to drink 2 drinks to blend in. If you think you can be intoxicated after 2 beers, you must be 60 pounds. I'm quite certain they were tested for BAC right after to appease the Monday Morning Quarterbacks.

I'll say it one last time, when you think your life is about to be taken, you will shoot as many rounds as you have, and you will not worry about somebody three blocks away. Cops are not machines. Navy SEALS don't count their rounds when they're under fire, why should cops? The reason the cops fired is three skells tried to run one down.
 
On another story Ralph 'Bucky' Phillips did a plea bargain and got life .Freely admitting that he did intend to kill the Trooper ,he showed no remorse. He killed two others. This was the big manhunt in western NYS earlier this year.:(
 
I'll say it one last time, when you think your life is about to be taken, you will shoot as many rounds as you have, and you will not worry about somebody three blocks away. Cops are not machines. Navy SEALS don't count their rounds when they're under fire, why should cops? The reason the cops fired is three skells tried to run one down.
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Of course, perhaps police officers should be held to a higher standard that soldiers in a combat zone. Maybe keep it down to one mag when faced with unarmed targets who aren't shooting back.

It's also good to know that cops put their own lives above innocent bystanders, and that other cops/ex-cops will defend that principle. Protect and serve, indeed.

EDIT: Seriously, I felt the need to add to this. If you cannot handle the idea that your life may end so that the public might be safer, don't be a damn cop. Go be a mall security guard. Or maybe a TSA agent, if you can't do without some sense of authority. Or maybe sell life insurance. But unloading two magazines of what were, at best, poorly aimed shots in order to save your own skin with no regard whatsoever to those behind the windows on the street or standing two blocks down....

Seriously, if yours is the attitude of the average police officer, I now know what the problem is.

And maybe next time I need a cop, I will call a firefighter. Those guys are all about putting the lives of others above their own.
 
You are taking the words of three known felons over the words of 5 police officers with impeccable records, thousands of arrests between them, hundreds of thousands of confrontations that did not end in arrest, and not one discharge of a weapon in their careers.
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I have not seen any statements about specifics of the incident by the men in the car. The statements I have seen have been from the NYPD, the Mayor, and anonymous sources who claimed to have spoken to the policemen involved in the incident.
 
I will add my $.02-from the safety and comfort of my computer terminal-by
noting the primary cause of this tragedy is Mayor Bloomberg and his hoplophobia, to use Jeff Cooper's word. His attitude that "only the police should have guns" has resulted in an attitude-and a policy-that all a police
officer has to hear-or think, even feel is "he's got a gun!" and like James Bond they have "A Licence to Kill".
I also note that NYPD has the attitude they are an occupying army and of
a superior caste to the "civilians", to which I respond is that all members of the NYPD-and all other PDs-are civilians too, the only people in this Great Land of Ours who are NOT civilians are military personnel on active duty.
And much of the friction between the NYPD and so many of the minority
group neighborhoods they patrol is due to the NYPD's well deserved and well
documented reputation for corruption and venality, it is no secret that many
illegal activities flourish so long as payoffs are made to the right people.
 
SIGSHR has a point. I visited a brand new $600,000 home for a NYPD uniformed street officer with about 10 years over the last weekend. Part time working wife. Two new cars worth over $30k each. The house is full of high end electronics, plasma HD TVs, BOSE sound systems, etc. as well as brand new high end furniture in every room. Add in two children under 5 and NO deceased or alive rich relatives. Think about it folks... THen there is one of my own cousins who is out with a "back injur" that doesn't seem to keep her from chasing her kids around at the family reunions, she also managed to shoot herself in the foot once (through the shoe just missing her toe), great training there! That is the type of thing that helps to sow distrust. It is also the department of NYPD officer and mob hit man Louis Eppolito. NYPD does breed an US vs. THEM mentality and the ones who are dirty, of which there are plenty (not all and not a majority) make it even worse.

Paper targets alone do not make training. Homerboy is right on that. At the same time 300 rounds a year is a measly amount and we all know it. The training I am talking about has far more to do with JUDGEMENT, Shoot / Don't Shoot, etc than simply putting lead into targets. THat costs money and is NOT stressed with the NYPD since the old street training by the experienced officers should suffice. That would be the same street training that gave us Amidu Dialo...

Homerboy is also right. Navy Seals do not count every round. They also will throw a grenade at their foes. Do you propose issuing fragmentation grenades to the NYPD? The Police are not the Army, get that straight. Simply saying "GUN" is not grounds to open up on every person in the region. Some here are awfully touchy about any insinuation that the cops are not always in the right, and do a fair share of pushing these into closed threads. I notice the "LEO defenders" already sunk to personal attacks... I guess that happens when logic fails, it seems to work for the liberals.
 
Navy SEALS don't count their rounds when they're under fire, why should cops? The reason the cops fired is three skells tried to run one down.
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You don't see a difference between how Navy SEALS should conduct their operations, and how public servants should conduct themselves as they deal with the citizens of this nation?
 
So now the real feelings come out. With absolutely NO proof, you accuse the NYPD of being mostly corrupt cops. So what if he had a $600,000 dollar home? If he bought if before 1998, it was probably $300,000. IAB runs integrity tests on cops routinely. Get caught taking a free newspaper and you'll be fired. Corruption in the NYPD is a RARE thing, and it is severely dealt with when it is found. DA's love nothing more than to convict a cop. Something JuanCarlos can probably appreciate.

All you Monday Morning Quarterbacks are clueless. The fact is, as per the penal law, the cops have done nothing wrong. They will not be indicted by a grand jury. And I hope if you ever have to fire your gun in defense of yourselves or a loved one that nobody is counting your shots. See how it makes you feel. And by the way, no cop I know would put his life in front of a civilian. It's not in the job description. Cops are paid to enforce the law. We accept a certain level of risk in doing that, but it states nowhere that a cop should sacrifice his life for another.

No more on this.
 
All you Monday Morning Quarterbacks are clueless. The fact is, as per the penal law, the cops have done nothing wrong. They will not be indicted by a grand jury.
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They may not be indicted, but that doesn't mean they are blameless, or that what they did was wise. Any individual with a CCW who fired 31 shots into a vehicle with 3 unarmed occupants would be indicted. Moreover, the city will likely be held liable for what they did in the ensuing civil suit, and the taxpayers will pay dearly for it.
 
So now the real feelings come out. With absolutely NO proof, you accuse the NYPD of being mostly corrupt cops. So what if he had a $600,000 dollar home? If he bought if before 1998, it was probably $300,000.
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Homerboy, he bought it, actually had it built, very early THIS YEAR at the market's peak on Long Island. This is my wife's family and it was she who first suggested it out loud to me, although it was certainly rattling around in my head. Can you with a straight face actually say there are no corrupt cops in NYC? My corrupt cousin (and I consider a a mythical back injury to get disabilitiy from the force corrupt) also has brothers who are connected in NYC, with one having done time. It is an old Irish family with both honest workers and hoods going back to our arrival at Ellis Island. It doesn't come up as a topic of conversation but everybody knows the score. You also seem to have avoided mentioning Louis Eppolito, hit man, actor, author and NYPD decorated officer. Again, I am not saying all or even most, but there are enough of them and their brothers and sisters turn a blind eye to it except for IAD (who they all hate). It's a well known fact and it serves to increase the separation between the police and the populance becasue there are clearly two sets of laws, cop law and civilian law. Get most NYPD officers talking over some beers and you will instantly hear the us and them verbage come out (often without the beer too). Now though it is a case of the chicken and the egg. The cops ferment separation because the populance turns against them, the populance turns against them because the cops ferment separation. On and On. The whole point though was to show you there is a reason for the distrust between the general population and the NYPD. It is accepted as fact and any who would live here and say otherwise are either blind or lying.

Penal Law requires some sort of justification for the shooting that is judged reasonable by a jurry. Shooting three people when ONE of them MAY have a gun according to a statement yelled out by another seems a little bit of a reach. The NYPD should not be in the business of conducting suppresive fire against groups of suspects, only engaging identified threats. Training and protocol need to change ASAP.
 
If they'd had fragged the car like Navy SEALs, I suppose they wouldn't have had to fire so many shots.

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I think it's interesting that they're now looking for a fourth man who apparantly fled during the gunfire. One of the men from the car is denying there was a fourth man, yet a bystander is collaberating the police officers' story and says she saw the man running away from the car.

I think it's still a bit premature to be jumping to conclusions either way on this incident. It doesn't appear that all the facts are in.
 
I actually think it is worth shutting down this thread until some new evidence arises. There are those who would have logical debate on the rules of engagement and then there are those who think anything the NYPD did must be right. I see no sign of the two meeting and this thread, without new information, can contribute nothing more to the community.
 
I actually think it is worth shutting down this thread until some new evidence arises. There are those who would have logical debate on the rules of engagement and then there are those who think anything the NYPD did must be right. I see no sign of the two meeting and this thread, without new information, can contribute nothing more to the community.
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I think I could agree with this assessment.

Of course, I think short of a videotape showing the guy running off with the gun (or the guys in the car returning fire then throwing the gun out the window) or a videotape showing the police with eyes closed spraying wildly while shouting "Allahu Ackbar!" neither side is likely to budge much anyway. New evidence is unlikely to make much difference, except to get guys like me to say the officers were less wrong.
 
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