NY Cops

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Being relatively new here, I can offer an outside perspective on the threads I see here involving police shootings. There are two camps here, one thinking all police are evil, the other thinking they can do no wrong.

The truth lies between the two. Cops are human. Some cops are crooked, on a power trip, or worse.

Most cops are upstanding and do the job to the best of their ability.

They come from all sides of the political spectrum, and their politics tend to reflect the population of the area they are in.

They nearly ALL will lie to cover each others behinds. That makes the real truth hard to get.
 
by Homerboy:
All three men had arrest records (even if cops didn't know it at the time): Bell had been nabbed twice for drugs and once on a gun rap; Guzman, nine times, including for armed robbery, and Benefield for gun possession and robbery.

What does New York law say about sealed juvenile records?
 
#1 The cops are innocent until proven guilty by a jury of their peers

#2 Is Al Sharpton elected or appointed and what the hell is his title anyway

#3 If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck, if not then it is guilty of impersonating a duck during duck season and deserves to get shot.

If you try to run over a cop with a car you are trying to kill him/her and deadly force is justified. How much? If you weren't there then how would you know?
 
#2 Is Al Sharpton elected or appointed and what the hell is his title anyway

Reverend, IIRC. Regardless, one need not have an "official" elected or appointed title to be a public activist. For instance, unless I'm mistaken Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had no official title either...at least no more than Sharpton.

Not that Sharpton is any MLK, but still...the point remains.
 
It's REV Sharpton [Tawana Brawly ] and with his buddy REV Daughtry [ex-con] Both are self appointed REVs....Mayor B should have kept his mouth shut, he had no business saying anything until the facts were in !! It's always the same story the "victims "are really nice guys ,never hirt anyone ,loved their families ---their police records are rarely mentioned and the drug-prostitution-weapons club will be down played.All the anti -police , anti- Mayor types crawl out of the woodwork.:mad:
 
The Kalua certainly seems a choice target, following reports of drug and gun violations and prostitution at the club.

Okay, "gun violations" in New York City? Like what, possession of a defensive arm in public - something I do every time I step out of my house here in New Hampshire - without the holy and sacred blessing of a corrupt favoritist obstructionist "permit" issuance bureaucracy and a selective-enforcement racket which stands in direct opposition to the Second Amendment and the fundamental human right of self-defense?

"Drug violations?" I assume we're not talking about nanny-government official stamp of approval drugs such as nicotine or ethanol, right?

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"Prostitution," unlike the guy who buys a gal dinner and a movie for $100 in exchange for sexual favors and dumps her the next day, which is somehow so much more noble and virtuous than a simple cash transaction, and so undeserving of criminal penalties? I know! Let's have the government arrest, incarcerate, and publish the names of all the guys who don't return phone calls after the first hot date! Much more efficient than the wall of a women's bathroom.

Armed robbery - sure as hell!! But then the question becomes if he was arrested nine times, including for armed robbery, why the hell was he out of jail? Did he get a furlough to go to his buddy's bachelor party, or are the priorities of our law enforcement and justice systems completely out of whack?

Why is Club Kalhua still in possession of business and liquor licenses if it's such a known den of iniquity?

No wonder we end up with knee-jerk cliché laws like "Three Strikes" - the courts keep whacking our patellar tendons with crap like this!
 
Commisioner Kelly's comment about cops being trained to fire three shots and then assess is a total fabrication. At no time was I ever trained in that way. At the range, to restore order on the line, sometimes you will be limited to the number of rounds you may fire during tht phase, but that's it. Kelly sold out the cops with that one. it is a total lie.

mvpel:
We're not talking about someone who was afraid they were going to be robbed so they got a gun. These three mutts were habitualy predators. They had guns to prey on innocent people. You sound like a complete moron.

Why were they out of prison? Because the prisons are crowded, and liberal ADA's reduce charges in exchange for a guarenteed conviction with a lesser plea. It's a numbers game.

Again, the cop who fired 31 times was a twelve year veteran with hundreds of arrests and never fired his gun before. If he felt the need to unload 31 times, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
 
Homerboy- Don't bother trying to argue; you won't win. Check out some of the other posts by those you are attempting to sway. :rolleyes:

You'll find they are quite set in their way and are anti-LEO.
 
We're not talking about someone who was afraid they were going to be robbed so they got a gun. These three mutts were habitualy predators. They had guns to prey on innocent people. You sound like a complete moron.

Of course not, because in New York City the average innocent person would be thrown in one of those overcrowded jails so fast your head would spin if they dared to use an unlicensed firearm to defend themselves against violent predators.

The DA's office made sure everyone knew damn good and well that mutts have more rights than honest citizens when they cuffed, stuffed, grilled, nailed, and incarcerated Bernie Goetz, and continue to make sure of it every time they mutter in the newspapers about "vigilantiism" when a store owner rises in manly defense of his his life and livelihood against some worthless recidivist fresh off a deal cut with the DA, and who then has to rise in manly and expensive legal defense against an unjust criminal prosecution.

Don't you see the connection here?

Why were they out of prison? Because the prisons are crowded, and liberal ADA's reduce charges in exchange for a guarenteed conviction with a lesser plea. It's a numbers game.

Here's some numbers for you - midyear 2005 there were over 90,000 non-US-citizens in Federal and State prisons nationwide, nearly 56,000 at the state level.

And from 1997 data 75% of people released from state prisons are nonviolent criminals, with property crimes (restitution?) or drug offenses (other than caffeine or nicotine) each making up about a third of that number. 5% are "weapons violations," most of which probably stem from unconstitutional laws, and simple drug possession makes up nearly 20%. Trafficking is another nearly 20%, but given the phony-baloney amount requirements for a trafficking charge, in some states amounting to three cigarettes' worth, that number can be taken with a lump of salt.

The War on Some Drugs is the very reason why we have a prison crowding crisis. DA's shouldn't be playing numbers games, they should be putting violent criminals, such as armed robbers, behind bars for a long time.

I'm not anti-LEO - I'm arguing against the most dangerous, corrosive, corrupting influence that honest, upstanding police officers face in this day and age.
 
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Homerboy- Don't bother trying to argue; you won't win. Check out some of the other posts by those you are attempting to sway.

You'll find they are quite set in their way and are anti-LEO.

Have I ever suggested that there aren't hundreds of thousands of cops doing their job well and honestly every single day? Of course there are. However, we both know that there are also far too many who abuse their positions of authority, or just plain aren't cut out to be police officers. Unless you're suggesting that every conviction against officers of corruption or misconduct in history was unjust.

We merely start off looking at a situation like this with a different set of assumptions. You go in figuring the cops were probably in the right, at which point it will never be terribly hard to convince yourself of this...after all, police are authorized to use force, even deadly force. If you go into any use of force assuming that the police officers acted appropriately, it will be hard to convince yourself otherwise.

Those of us on the other side of the Blue Wall tend to look at things a little differently, considering we are the ones at risk of ending up on the wrong side of a police-issue weapon. I don't go in with the assumption that the cops were in the wrong, only with the assumption that they could have been. Granted, when looking at a situation like this through that lens it becomes almost equally easy to come to an opposing conclusion...I'll admit that.

Of course, the real problem is that investigations into incidents involving police use of force are (at least in my opinion, and in the opinions of many who are not LEOs/ex-LEOs) generally biased in favor of the officers involved. Which means that at the end of the day, the public generally just doesn't have much faith that the "truth" will come out...and have no doubt, I know the "truth" is that some such uses of force are justified, but that others are not. Since we (as the non-LEO public) have little reason to trust the results of such investigations, we go home with our assumptions, and you go home with yours...further aggravating the "us vs. them" mentality on both sides.

Lastly, I'll say this. It may sound like I dislike and distrust all LEOs. Maybe I do. Want to know why? Think about Muslims for a moment. Many in our country tend to distrust and dislike all Arab Muslims, and treat them all as possible terrorists, even though statistically only a very small percentage are in any way involved in such activities. The most common justification I've heard for this is that while only a small number are terrorists, an equally small number of the rest are willing to do so much as speak out against these actions, let alone help stop them. Forget for a moment the few that cheer after terrorist attacks...they are also a small minority. Think instead of the majority, from religious leaders all the way down, who instead just remain strangely silent on the issue...how does this make you feel about them? Does it make you trust them?

Not a perfect analogy, to be sure...but I see many similarities between this and the public perception of police officers. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've heard LEO's/ex-LEOs come out against their fellow officers' behavior in public. Yet we all know bad cops do exist. How is that supposed to help us trust any of you?

You might feel safer behind the Blue Wall of Silence, but how can you also expect not to end up distrusted (at best) or hated (at worst) for standing behind it as well?

Also, you know what's fun about "us vs. them" mentalities? To you, I'm "them." But to me, and to a majority of the public, you're "them." Who knew?
 
Go day in and day out giving cops credit for what they do and the cop defenders here don't care.

Question when they shoot someone in a questionable manner and you are a cop basher and the enemy.

Nobody here would argue you should stop firing before the threat is gone. How many of these officers could CLEARLY IDENTIFY the threat that they were SHOOTING AT. 50 shots people. Multiple cops firing away into a car with multiple people in it. Is the assumption that all of them were tying to kill an officer, one of them, none of them, was there a gun, who yelled gun, did they try to run someone down, if they did are the passengers also guilty of that attack? All of these are questions that are unanswerred.

What we do know is the NYPD has a history of firing at a target they are not certain of. In other cases multiple officers, knowing only that a shot has been fired but not certain from who, have openned up and emptied their weapons at what turned out to be an unarmed victim. There is a problem with the NYPD that is related to the trouble giving continuous training to such a large force as well as their rules of engagement. One officer should never open fire just becasue he heard a shot and is not CERTAIN it came from the suspect as opposed to another officer. I may not be a memeber of the NYPD but I have several friends who are as well as multiple family members.

Sharpton is a muck racker who will always come out when any racial issues come up. Every city has their own brand and they are to be expected.

Bloomberg is trying to be a little more diplomatic than Guliani was and prevent the fracturing of the city. While questioning the validity of the shoot he has not convicted anyone and the decision on how to move forward is completely out of his hands anyway. His job is PR and calming down the black community would probably be better for the NYPD than him standing there, calling the victims felons and patting the officers on their backs. I don't like Bloomberg but he seems to be trying to straddle the fence on this and keep the pot from boiling over.
 
Good post, Homerboy. Thank you.

Yeah, especially the "Fat Al" and "Mutts" portion. I don't know if that was the best portion, or the part about "any cop who has been on the job can look at a guy and tell if he's been in the system."

They probably shoulda went back to the station house for some more ammo, and come back and pumped a few more rounds in the filthy "Mutts."

Anyone who a third party claims made a statement such as "get a gun" should sure be shot down immediately upon an officer hearing that type of comment relayed from a third party.

And I guess anyone walking with them or riding with them should be shot dead, just for not reporting it. Darned old "Mutts."
 
mvpel said:
Why is Club Kalhua still in possession of business and liquor licenses if it's such a known den of iniquity?
It's not the owner's job or responsibility to investigate patrons and kick out anyone who might be involved in criminal activity. Also, perhaps the owner knows people.

The way politics and law enforcement works in NYC, I'd surmise that the objective of many cops there is not to get rid of iniquity, but to accumulate arrests and move up through the ranks. Getting rid of a hive of scum and villainy runs counter to that goal. It would make criminals harder to catch.
 
Homerboy said:
You sound like a complete moron.
There have been opinions expressed on this thread that are bordering upon utter incivility. The above crosses the line into personal attack.

Homerboy, hold whatever opinion you want, but attack the idea of another member, not the member himself.

This thread is on its 3rd page. Any bets it won't last to the 4th page?
 
no bets here

That's big city NYPD time. Roughly 600 years in your local yokel ****kicking town.

Goollllieeeee I don't know which to plead, Gomer, Homer, or several thousand years
old.

Let all hope whatever the outcome the truth is found.
 
Antipitas:

You're right. Moron comment went over the line. Sorry for that one.


The anti-cop rhetoric coming from some of these posts is extreme. Sounds like some of these guys failed the psych and couldn;t get on the job. All that aside:

You are taking the words of three known felons over the words of 5 police officers with impeccable records, thousands of arrests between them, hundreds of thousands of confrontations that did not end in arrest, and not one discharge of a weapon in their careers. Despite what you think you know, police officers do not have to identify a threat before firing, and neither do private citizens. They must have a reasonable belief that force is about to be used against them. So when someone tells you someone else has a gun, and you go to stop them and they rech for their waistband, it doesn't matter if they were pulling out their cellphone. if you reasonably believe you are about to be fired upon, you may react with deadly force.

As for the 50 shots, get over it. Shots fired are not limited by either the penal law or the PD guidelines. They are simply a way to get people outraged and sell papers.

Keep watching this one. I GUARENTEE more will come to light. Of course, the anti-cop posters here will say the cops planted it.

And by the way, JuanCarlos, your analogy sucks. By your reasoning, profiling is OK. Do you want to be profiled as a "gun nut" just because you own guns? Do you want the actions of a few demented people to infringe on your right to keep and bear arms?
 
And by the way, JuanCarlos, your analogy sucks. By your reasoning, profiling is OK. Do you want to be profiled as a "gun nut" just because you own guns? Do you want the actions of a few demented people to infringe on your right to keep and bear arms?

Only if the responsible among us were unwilling to speak out against the demented people who misuse firearms. In that case, I could most definitely see mistrusting "gun nuts" in general. As it is most firearms enthusiasts, unlike most police, are more than willing to call out those among their ranks that are negligent, irresponsible, or malicious.
 
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Not trying to speak down to small town cops or small town people, for that matter. I now live in a small town and love it. While small towns have their crimes, you have to admit that a cop with 1 year on the job in NY has come across more than you would see anywhere.
 
Homerboy, thank you for publicly recognizing your error.

I really dislike these kind of threads. Possibly more than any other, as they are so divisive. The "Us v. Them" mentality is perpetuated by both sides and aided by incomplete information, as reported by the media. It is seldom that we get all the facts or know all the reasons behind the "story."

What I see in these threads is no different than impugning the integrity of all our Servicemen and Servicewomen because of the acts of a very select few. Cop bashing is no different.

Having written this, is it at all possible to tone down the rhetoric, from both sides, until we know more of the facts?
 
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