NY Cops

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Like both the persons shot and the LEO's judgment were compromised for different reasons, with a tragic out come. Not good PR for the community. And the usual vultures are there to enhance their own agenda. Mr Sharpton should take time to help the youth there while the LEO's need to establish better relations with the community and work together, and concentrate on the preservation of life.
 
I feel sure the pending investigation will find no fault in the officers actions.

Officers are always justified unless video proves beyond all doubt otherwise. Even then maybe not.

How can 50 shots be to many? There was 5 unarmed men wasn't there?
Oh yeah one was armed with a car huh.

Two clips? He musta not had a third.

Right or wrong this is how it is, has been, and will continue to be.

Usual vultures, ain't that the truth.

Just another day in the life of American justice gone terribly wrong.

Nothing new.

Sad for the cops , sadder for the boys shot.
 
Groan. OK. Now for the full story:

The club in question is a known cesspool. Many active cases taken out of there for drugs, prostitution, and guns. The cops know this. That's why they were there.

The least senior man involved had 5 years on the job. That's big city NYPD time. Roughly 600 years in your local yokel ****kicking town.

The "victims" were all felons. All of them for violent drug and gun offenses. Cops might not have known it for fact, but any cop can look at a guy and tell you if he's been in the system, The perp who yelled "get my gun" has been arrested over a dozen times and just got out after serving several years.

Not reported yet, but friends of mine still on the job tell me shell casings from a different kind of gun were found in the perp's car. Wonder where the gun went? Did it maybe do the 'Brooklyn Bounce"?

Uncover follows mutts to their car. Witnesses agree someone yelled "he's got a gun" before any shots were fired. Who yelled it? I don't know. The cop with no criminal record says it was him. I believe him over some predicate felon. Even if it was the mutt, the responding cops heard it and could easily have mistaken it as coming from the cop.

Cop gets hit by car and fires. His partners rightfully see his life is in danger. They open up. How many shots will you fire if you think you're about to die?

None of the cops involved have EVER FIRED THEIR WEAPONS BEFORE THIS. Kind of takes away from the whole "they were out for blood" argument.

Cops are not forbidden to shoot at a vehicle. They may shoot at a vehicle if deadly force other than the vehicle is being used or about to be used against them. Believing there's a gun would satisfy that DEPARTMENT GUIDELINE. Nothing in the penal law says anything about cops not being allowed to fire at vehicles, so the most they have them on is violating department procedure. So what? No criminal offense there. Take my 20 days and send me to the rubber gun squad.

The fact that former Black Panther Charles Barron and Fat Al "Tawana Brawley was raped" Sharpton make the case seem even more pathetic. Can you honestly take their word for anything?

The anti-cops on this board should step away from the keyboard. You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
I don't think 50 shots is enough. When someone threatens law enforcement with percieved lethal activity it is not a time to be politically correct with ammo.
 
Wow, Homerboy. Do you, by any chance, have any links to back any of that up? Or are we to take the word of some friends of yours still on the job? Because Lord knows nothing is as unbiased or undistorted as second-hand opinions from LEO's regarding a shooting in their department.

Also, your repeated reference to the victims as "mutts" brings any semblance of impartiality you might have into serious question. I suppose putting 50 bullets into a car full of people might not seem to unreasonable if you've already dismissed them as little more than animals in your mind.

The anti-cops on this board should step away from the keyboard. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Oooh! Does this mean I get to tell anybody whose never been to a combat zone to shut their mouths regarding the current occupation of Iraq?
 
The least senior man involved had 5 years on the job. That's big city NYPD time. Roughly 600 years in your local yokel ****kicking town.

The fact that former Black Panther Charles Barron and Fat Al "Tawana Brawley was raped" Sharpton make the case seem even more pathetic. Can you honestly take their word for anything?

Wow, homerboy! Have you ever considered a career in public relations? You certainly know how to win folks over to your side.

badbob
 
JuanCarlos:

I refer to the "victims" as mutts because that's what they are. Career criminals don't get to be called anything else. I guess you'd be happy if one of them showed up at your house to pick up your daughter.

As for the shell casing being found in the car, why would you doubt it? All three of these mutts have firearms arrests to their credit. The cops wouldn't release info like that until they could back it up. They'd just have to hear the "Oh, but those racist cops planted them. They're trying to keep the brother down" or some other nonsense. You don't even know if I'm a minority or not. With a name like JuanCarlos, I'm guessing you're not Irish.

I find it amusing that you'd take the word of three mutts over 5 cops with impeccable records. Next time you need a cop, call the fire department.
 
From the NY Post. Sorry it's not a link, Juan. It'll have to do.

A REASONABLE FEAR

November 28, 2006 -- Once again, the rattle of NYPD gunfire heralds a tragedy. Once again, rabble-rousing advantage-seekers ply their corrosive trade.

Five cops fired 50 rounds outside a sleazy Queens strip-joint early Saturday morning, killing Sean Bell - a 23-year-old black man who was to be married that day - and injuring two other African-Americans, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield.

What happened?

Mayor Bloomberg cautions that an investigation is underway - and then, stunningly, indicts the cops.

"It sounds to me like excessive force was used," Bloomberg said yesterday.

Well, it sounds to us as if Mayor Mike needs to hold his horses.

Yes, 50 shots are a lot. Happily, the probe is in more judicious hands: Queens DA Richard Brown can be trusted to pull no punches.

And as the probe proceeds - and as was the case with the fatal shooting of Amadou Diallo in 1999 - it must be remembered that as a matter of law, cops have an explicit right to use deadly force if they are in reasonable fear for their lives.

This is true regardless of any department regulations on the use of force.

Preliminary reports suggest such a fear was indeed reasonable, given that Bell apparently drove his car into an undercover cop. And that officers on the scene thought the men might have had a gun.

Thus, the deadly shooting in this case, as in all others involving cops firing their weapons, must be judged in context:

* Start with the fact that the cops were probing a skeezy dive in Queens called Club Kalua. Their investigation was part of an NYPD operation called Club Enforcement Initiative, launched after the gruesome rape and murder of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore in July.

The Kalua certainly seems a choice target, following reports of drug and gun violations and prostitution at the club.

* All three men had arrest records (even if cops didn't know it at the time): Bell had been nabbed twice for drugs and once on a gun rap; Guzman, nine times, including for armed robbery, and Benefield for gun possession and robbery.

* An undercover cop reportedly heard Guzman say, "Yo, get my gun." Before firing, the officer demanded to see the men's hands - a clear sign he thought they might have a gun.

* As their car lurched forward, hitting him and a police minivan, the officer reportedly yelled, "He's got a gun."

Much of the attention, alas, has been focused on the fact that 50 shots were fired. Certainly, that seems a large number.

But there is reason to believe that in the confusion of the moment some officers believed that they had come under fire and - quite reasonably - retaliated.

There's that word again: reasonable.

None of this context, of course, matters to folks like Rev.-on-the-Spot Al Sharpton, or racial revolutionary City Councilman Charles Barron.

Yesterday Sharpton said, "Some in the city have to worry about the robbers. We [in the minority community] have to worry about both" cops and robbers.

Which is utter nonsense.

Events such as Saturday's tragedy are big news precisely because they're so rare. In any event, as Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said yesterday, police shootings per capita in New York City are lower than in most other large cities.

But Sharpton's almost pro forma protestations pale compared to Barron's vile race-mongering: "I'm not asking my people to do anything passive anymore," Barron snarled.

"Don't ask us to ask our people to be peaceful while they are being murdered. We're not the only ones that can bleed."

Bleed?

It was execrable rhetoric of that sort that made the sight of Bloomberg rubbing shoulders with Sharpton and Barron at City Hall so shocking.

You'd think the Bloomberg folks had already done enough to show good faith and outreach to minorities - what with all the speeches Kelly's made at black churches and his quick admission that another cop's shooting, which killed Timothy Stansbury in 2004, was unjustified.

Kelly, of course, can be counted on to do the right thing this time, too.

As can DA Brown.

And Bloomberg, we expect, is operating in good faith - even if he does have ants in his pants.

Not so Sharpton, Barron and the rest of their ilk. It would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.

Now, or ever.
 
Interesting editorial, enough to at least make me think.

Though I have one issue:

The NYP said:
All three men had arrest records (even if cops didn't know it at the time): Bell had been nabbed twice for drugs and once on a gun rap; Guzman, nine times, including for armed robbery, and Benefield for gun possession and robbery.

If the cops didn't know it at the time, and thus could not possibly have used it as part of their decision-making process, how could it be relevant? The cops actions need to be judged based on what they knew at the time, and the victim's (perp's?) actions. Nothing more.

Also I have yet to see any justification for an officer reloading and emptying a second magazine when no shots were being returned. And until I hear confirmation otherwise, I'm believing that not shots were being returned.


Lastly, just for fun, I am in fact Irish.
Latino Screen Name != Latino Poster
 
Juan:

You an comment about the occupation in Iraq if you want. You may not comment on trained soldiers actions. You don't have the background to judge someone in a combat situation.

As I said, just because the mutts weren't walking around with their last Central Booking slip stapled to their shirts, doesn't mean the cops weren't 99.9% sure they were familiar with the system.

As for reloading, the whole shooting was over in less than 10 seconds. With the echo of gunfire, the smoke, and the flash, the cop probably did not know the threat was over. In addition, the car was still moving, so he had no idea if his shots even hit. Finally, it's irrelevant. Cops are not limited in the number of shots they fired. They may shoot until the threat is gone. If that takes three magazine, so be it.
 
Finally, it's irrelevant. Cops are not limited in the number of shots they fired. They may shoot until the threat is gone. If that takes three magazine, so be it.
Absofreakinlutely correct. And that goes for any person defending their self. I am of the opinion that if this thread was about some guy having to defend his friend by having to fire 2 mags worth, there would be joyous accolades regarding his decision to arm himself and defend someone in need, regardess of the # of rounds fired.
But, I find more and more when I teach combat mindset and firearms that 99% of those who have never experienced this situation, or have never been threw some quality weapon trainng focus on legal issues like round counts, vice winning the fight.
 
Absolutelt correct Breacher. The anti-cop posters on this thread who a AR-15 with two 30 round mags in it under their bed would have no problem with it, but if it's a cop risking his ass to keep the skells at bay, it's a problem.

I'm happily retired, but I honestly don't know why cops do anything anymore. They're second guessed to no end. Do your 8 hours with as little public interaction as possible, and retire. Let the public reap what they sow.
 
You an comment about the occupation in Iraq if you want. You may not comment on trained soldiers actions. You don't have the background to judge someone in a combat situation.

You musta missed the subtlety. I have in fact spent a year in Iraq, and I am a trained soldier. 0 for 2 on assumptions so far.

Absofreakinlutely correct. And that goes for any person defending their self. I am of the opinion that if this thread was about some guy having to defend his friend by having to fire 2 mags worth, there would be joyous accolades regarding his decision to arm himself and defend someone in need, regardess of the # of rounds fired.
But, I find more and more when I teach combat mindset and firearms that 99% of those who have never experienced this situation, or have never been threw some quality weapon trainng focus on legal issues like round counts, vice winning the fight.

I suppose so. Then again, both my US Army training, as well as (according to statements by Police Commissioner Kelly) the NYPD's training teaches to fire in a controlled manner, rather than to go for the ol' "squeeze the trigger 'til it goes *click*" method, for a variety of reasons...not all of which are silly leftist legalities like round counts.
 
I'm not qualified to comment on proper procedure since I live in the country, 2 miles from a
local yokel ****kicking town
. But if this is representative of good law enforcement, America is in big trouble.

badbob
 
I do not beleve I, or anyone else, is advocating uncontrolled fire. I am sure that you have heard of a rhythm drill. Pistol and rifle fire are quite different b/c of the obvious differences in power. Now factor in multiple targets, shooting through car and window and it is possible to see how 50 rnds can be fired by 3 officers (I think it has been reported only 3 fired, please correct).
I also was in the military. I can tell you, as will many trainers (both in green and out) that the miliatry has been trying to catch up with private sector techniques (which is why you see many tier 1 and other units with $$) utilizing private trainers. Especially in pistol TTPs. But, I'm digressing...
The limitation of the rounds fired should be a result of the duration of the perceived threat, distance, background, etc. NOT, b/c a news conference or some bubble gum chewing shooter's forum is going to crucify you.
 
I do not beleve I, or anyone else, is advocating uncontrolled fire. I am sure that you have heard of a rhythm drill. Pistol and rifle fire are quite different b/c of the obvious differences in power. Now factor in multiple targets, shooting through car and window and it is possible to see how 50 rnds can be fired by 3 officers (I think it has been reported only 3 fired, please correct).

I don't know the total number of officers firing, but all news reports seem to agree that a single officer fired 31 rounds. Out of 50 total fired. Either he was doing something wrong, or the other officers were. I lean towards the former.
 
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