Not "should I shoot?" but "could I shoot?" That is the question.

Well its a decision I wont have to make should I be faced with a SD situation. That decision has already been made. I live with it every day. I dont know how I would feel afterwards as I have never had to deal with it and I pray to God I never do. I imagine after the initial mental trauma, I would sleep very well. I'm not going to be the reason I shoot a BG, that BG will have brought it upon himself.
 
The problem is that folks sometimes do have problems after a shoot, despite what you think on the way in. That's what the literature says and you can find if you talk to some people who've been in them. So, part of preparedness for folks in shooting situations is to be aware that there might be psychological consequences and deal with them efficaciously.

A few classes I've taken specifically mention that and my police psychologist colleagues lecture the cadets to that point.
 
Post event

The problem is that folks sometimes do have problems after a shoot, despite what you think on the way in.

A life threatening situation, especially when it involves shooting, is a bad time that will likely leave its mark on you to some degree no matter what. Ive heard people claim to have "no problem" after stuff like that but time tended to prove otherwise.

Im suggesting that just relying on bravado and not really exploring and owning ones choices and their results before an event like this could put someone at a disadvantage during the event and may have them asking the question "what the hell was I was I thinking?" afterward. Not good. I think we will all agree its better to know.

Knowing ones role in conflict, thinking through likely scenarios before hand, accepting the likely or possible outcome, and doing ones part to train for an event like that is a solid approach that should enhance performance, reduce risk of mistakes, and assist in recovery from the event.

Agree with above statement or not, I don't see how it could hurt.
 
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I have changed to an offensive mindset. I have to clear my may to my kids. I am advancing against/through the threat. That is offense is it not? My tactic isnt "hold ground and secure" it is "take ground and secure".......offense.
Why offense? You are acting to defend your family. That is a defensive scenario. You don't care if you capture, beat,or overpower the BGs, which would be the issue for an offense. Advancing against the threat is irreleveant, IMO. The concern is to secure your family. Seems awfully defensive to me. If you can save your family by yelling "Go away, I have a gun" and the BGs go away, you have accomplished your goal. We can get into the wisdom (or lack) of attempting to fight it out in the scenario given some other time.

I know there is kind of a militant insistence on always talking defense and any thought of offense or attacking is seriously frowned upon...for good legal reason but in this discussion of "could I?", I think it makes sense to discuss an offensive mindset.
I don't think it is anything like a militant insistence, it is more of a collective wisdom based on experience and training. Willingness of "could I do it" is not based on an offense or defense mindset.
 
Would do it!

It’s funny what I remember about “would I kill” if pressed to do it. Being military trained and a hunter from an early age I had no trouble “shooting”. I was a top rated Expert marksman. I could hit what I wanted to hit. However in a combat situation for the first time I was eating mud and thinking what the hell, somebody is gonna get hurt if they don’t watch where they’re shooting! It took the sight of blood to kick my arse in gear. For years after returning I didn’t have much to do with guns. But then I decided to get a CCW and really battled with the legal stuff involved after the killing. That bothered me more than the decision to kill. What would I be putting my family in for?
 
I cannot fathom that anyone would break into and enter my home without being armed, unless they were crazy, in which case if I am armed and fail to neutralize them they might disarm me. I don't have much experience or skill, and don't even have a gun yet, but from the moment my home has been violated any moral issues about preservation of human life go out the window. There isn't a people shortage, and the benefit of the doubt ends between my no tresspassing signs and my front door. I'm a small woman with kids, and frankly I've had enough in my life of protecting the rights of others to be in a position to harm me or my kids. I picture my home like my web, and I'm one fed up spider. Once I know an intruder isn't a confused plumber or a neighbor with alzheimers, they have forfeited their humanity in my eyes.

A better question, could I not do it? How could I not do it? Mitigating violence is non-violence. Allowing someone with violent intent to carry out those intentions is violent. I'm over being an accessory to my own victimization.
 
I can

The one time I drew my weapon on duty, I was all set to put 6 in the bad guy's chest, reload and put 6 more in. It happened so fast I don't remember actually pulling my gun out. I looked into the holding cell, didn't see my prisoner. I thought he was hiding behind the door, ready to jump me in order to escape. In a nano second, I made the decision I was going to "take him off the count". Fortunatley, he was only trying to hang himself off the fire sprinkler. I yelled at him to get down from there, backed out of the room and called for back-up.
 
The rest of the bedrooms where my kids sleep are upstairs. This puts the bad guy(s) between me and my kids from the moment they break in. This bothers me and introduces some real problems to say the least.

Holy smokes! That would bother me a whole lot. Not just BGs but fire also. I would seriously consider finding a way to get an enclosed stairwell from basement to top floor. It may not be practical but it's the solution I'd be looking at most closely.
 
Runswalking

Would do it!
It’s funny what I remember about “would I kill” if pressed to do it. Being military trained and a hunter from an early age I had no trouble “shooting”. I was a top rated Expert marksman. I could hit what I wanted to hit. However in a combat situation for the first time I was eating mud and thinking what the hell, somebody is gonna get hurt if they don’t watch where they’re shooting! It took the sight of blood to kick my arse in gear. For years after returning I didn’t have much to do with guns. But then I decided to get a CCW and really battled with the legal stuff involved after the killing. That bothered me more than the decision to kill. What would I be putting my family in for?

I have had to point my pistol on two occasions while on duty as a deputy sheriff and in uniform. There was no shooting.

I think that I would have the most "trouble" with shooting someone as Runswalking noted above. It is what our government puts you through after a justified shooting that concerns me most. I decided I COULD shoot when I decided to carry a gun.

If you carry and are undecided you are in a bad place.
 
Times they are a changing

I don't mean to be a doom and gloomer but I think things are going to get worse before they get better. People are already burning their houses here to avoid foreclosure. White collar joes are becoming felons.

As this stuff gets worse and layoffs or business closings really start kicking, your going to have a lot of desperate people out there. The people on the margins now will have a hell of a time. One of the few recession proof businesses is drugs. The news is full of stories involving Mexican drug cartels.

Time to check the locks and latches. I think its going to be a bumpy one. If you cant make the decision to get a gun, I would at least get mace and a Louisville Slugger.
 
Its not necessarily a matter of values ...

A couple of quick points. First, what one THINKS they can/will do in a situation is not a real good indicator of what they actuially will do. A fair amount of evidence over the years of those who think they can freezing up when the time comes, as well as evidence indicating those who say they can't actually perform quite well when the time comes.

Dave is correct. The army found that a lot of soldiers froze, even though they obviously chose a warrior's profession. Thus, modern training programs are designed to reduce the automatic freezing response that sometimes occurs. It's wired into you but can be overcome with training.

I agree with these two. Its not necessarily a matter of values, or morality, or reluctance to take a life - its more a matter of being able to function in a crisis situation where things are happening fast and the heart is racing. A few folks seem to actually perform better in a crisis, but most have a tendency to either freeze or go into a panic mode. Maybe training can help - but I suspect there is a limit to what training can do. It is difficult to simulate life or death situations.

Sergeant York was a concientious objector in WW1, yet once on the battlefield he performed like the hero he was. He seemed to have no more trouble pulling the trigger on a German soldier than he did shooting a turkey back home. But then, when you need to make that turkey shot in order to eat, that is a lot of pressure too.
 
I have a question. I've never had to shoot anything, so I'm wondering about the "freezing" being discussed, and if anyone can make an analogy to something I am experienced with, like driving, perhaps? I have been in situations where some violence or wrongdoing is taking place and others watch stunned while I have intervened, little tiny loudmouthed me, I think the bg's have been scared because they think (know?) I must be crazy, anyway, other than being in a situation where you actually have to shoot someone, how can you know if you'll have this problem and what can you do to prevent it? From a civilian standpoint?
 
I have a question. I've never had to shoot anything, so I'm wondering about the "freezing" being discussed, and if anyone can make an analogy to something I am experienced with, like driving, perhaps? I have been in situations where some violence or wrongdoing is taking place and others watch stunned while I have intervened, little tiny loudmouthed me, I think the bg's have been scared because they think (know?) I must be crazy, anyway, other than being in a situation where you actually have to shoot someone, how can you know if you'll have this problem and what can you do to prevent it? From a civilian standpoint?

I don't think there is any way to know for sure. As far as training, I'd get a lot of practice shooting at realistic human targets. It's why the army switched from Bullseyes to pop up targets. If you train until it's second nature to draw and fire (also practice drawing and not firing so you don't get in the habit of shooting no matter what) then hopefully you'll cut down some of that hesitation.
 
other than being in a situation where you actually have to shoot someone, how can you know if you'll have this problem and what can you do to prevent it? From a civilian standpoint?
You can't. interestingly, IME just because you have been able to do it once doesn't mean you will be able to do it again. Probably the best things are visualization and actual FoF training. Often the "freeze" is the brain trying to figure out what it should do.
 
It is thought that a fear evoking stimulus is quickly processed by the amygdala to generate an emergency response. One of those is to freeze as freezing makes you harder to detect in our past nonurban, outdoors surroundings. When you move, you easily attract predator vision due to one of the mammalian visual systems specialized for such.

Thus freezing as some ecological validity. The armed forces have programs that through repeated exposure to such, try to teach you to move and react by programming other automatic motor responses. The use of FOF for civilian and police training uses the same idea.

Another conceptualization is that we are in a state of disbelief when the emergency happens. That paralyzes action choices. Training to act dispells that.

Are there individual differences in response? That's being investigated and, duh, the predictive factors are in a book that is at work and I'm on Spring Break.
 
Offensive tactics within a defensive strategy

Mentioned earlier is that at my place, a home defense situation at night will likely have the intruders in the middle floor, with me in the basement, and my kids on the top floor.

I will have to "clear" the main floor to get to my kids.

While I may be defending my home and family (a defensive strategy) I will have to advance into the main floor to get to the upstairs to secure my kids (an offensive tactic). This is far different than herding everyone into a room, covering the door, and waiting for the police.

Since this is more of a psychological "could I?" thread rather than a legal one, I think it is important to discuss that at one point or another it may be necessary to advance from a defensive position and take or deny ground from/to the threat. I believe this to be a significant psychological shift that should really be part of the “could I?” self-discussion.

Getting troops to leave a bunker, trench, or foxhole and advance has been the subject of a lot of study, thought, and training since the beginning of ranged conflict. I think defensive firearm owners need to face it head on and become comfortable and resolved in their approach to this situation.

Stealth may also be important because it makes a lot of sense to achieve an advantageous position before announcing ones presence. Just yelling up the stairs to them that we have guns and the cops are on their way may result in them making hostages of my kids. I don’t plan on announcing my self until I have achieved entry to the main floor, have at least one other location to retreat to, and I have a BG in the sights. It would be nice if I can sneak to the kid’s rooms without incident and just sit tight with them till LE gets there but the layout of the house makes this incredibly unlikely.

I’ve seen on this thread where people who thought to employ body armor as “mall ninjas” and what not but if you must advance against the threat as I must, it makes a lot of sense, especially if your honey can cover the door to your room as well as mine can while you put it on. Mine sits under the bed ready to go. I can realistically be armed and armored in much less than 30 seconds.

The “Could I?” discussion applies to more than just “Could I shoot someone?” it applies to:

“Could I sit downstairs leaving my kids at the mercy of intruders while we wait for the police?”

“Could I leave a relatively safe position and advance against the threat to deny them access to other people in the house?”

“Could I keep quiet until I reach the other people in the house or achieve a decent position to protect them?”

“Could I coherently explain to law enforcement what and why I did what I did when they finally get there?”

“Could I resist attempts by law enforcement to get me to make statements before consulting an attorney?”

Thinking it through makes sense but even the best plans usually don’t survive first contact with the enemy. At least from a tactical point of view you will be clear as to what your goals are, what you can live with, and what you are willing to die for when your plan goes to hell in a hand basket.

From a moral/psychological point of view you will know what options are realistically open to you and have some alternatives in mind to get around your “sticking points”.

Being an analytical type A person, “thinking this through” came natural. The necessity of “feeling it through” became clearer as I started getting into some of the details. The bottom line is that I am much more comfortable and confident in my role as a defensive firearm owner. I hope my situation and experiences in finding the proper approach to it might be helpful to others here as well. I am sure others have plenty to contribute.
 
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Freezing

Ginger-

I have a question. I've never had to shoot anything, so I'm wondering about the "freezing" being discussed, and if anyone can make an analogy to something I am experienced with, like driving, perhaps?

I’m just some guy typing away on a gun forum. I can claim to be anyone from anywhere. Ill do my best to give you my take on it but you need to do your part to get direct information from real and accountable sources. That said, here goes.

I believe the "freezing" you mention to be a result of the cumulative effect of many factors. A lot of effort has gone into methods of identifying and desensitizing people to “panic button” triggers for military, police, athletes, and even public speakers.

In my experiences and in my reading, there seems to be a general consensus that while these triggers are unique to the individual, there are some common things that come up in almost everyone.

It’s not just “panic button triggers” that must be addressed. There are habits that people develop from a very young age that can stampede through your panic triggers like a bull in a china shop. The most common is Fear Escalation or "Heaping".

My best short summary of fear escalation is that when something happens that evokes fear, the person will pile other fears on top of it. You mentioned driving. I’ll try a realistic example:
_________
Ah, quitting time. Out the door into a stinging snowstorm. She reaches the car and starts it up. The radio is awash in reports of traffic accidents and delays as she waits for the windows to defrost. “This sucks” she mutters to herself as she looks out the frosted windshield at the storm. The radio breaks in again with a report of an accident with injuries. “This really sucks” she says out loud, trying to remember which one of her friends lost a sister in a storm like this a few years ago.

“I can’t just stay here; the kids are waiting for dinner. I hope they made it home ok. Maybe Bill can grab something on his way home."

She fishes her phone out of her purse and dials home. “All circuits are busy, please hang up and try again” is all she gets. She tries again, and again, same results. Blurting out obscenities about phone companies, snowstorms, and about why she still lives here, she puts the car into reverse, it barely moves. She has to pull forward and back a few times to get enough momentum to break through the pile of snow behind the car.

Finally she eases the car into drive. Clutching the wheel with a big sigh she eases the accelerator down while trying to remember what Bill said about front wheel drives versus rear wheel drives in a slide. The continues talking to herself as she exits the parking lot.

“I wonder if the kids or Bill have been trying to reach me.” “How long has the service been down?” “God I hope they made it ok.” “Where did I put that phone?” “Oops can’t look a way from the road.” “Ok, just stay focused”. “Do I steer into a slide or out of one in a rear wheel drive?” “The freeways are usually the first to get plowed but oh man, I hope people aren’t being idiots and driving too fast.”

As she pulls on the freeway it pops into her head. “It was Candice’s sister!” she blurts aloud. “Oh how bad that must have been for her and her kids.” “How did her husband cope?” “Bill couldn’t get out the door for work if I didn’t get everything ready for him, how could he ever raise the kids alone?” “What if he remarried?’ “What kind of woman would he marry, one of our friends?” “I bet Amy would be all over him with her fake boobs and her stupid laugh.” “The kids would never.”

Whoosh! A semi speeds past her at 70MPH blasting heavy slush and ice into the side of her car. The car shifts and starts to slide sideways. She hears herself scream and feels her foot stomping the break. BOOM, boom boom BOOM boom.

Tap tap tap. “OMG what happened?” Tap tap tap. Her hand reaches for the window switch on its own. Tap tap tap. The icy window goes down revealing a police officer. He is saying something but it sounds like he is talking into a pillow.

“Mam, I am going to need you to pull your car over to the side of the road.”
______

Okay, with my terrible attempt of writing there I tried to illustrate how a typical person can escalate fears or “heap”. By the time the semi truck whooshed by she had dozens of fear triggers loaded with tension ready to trip. When the event happened they all went off causing a panic and a freeze.

Once she had made the decision to drive, the answer to the stress was to just focus completely on driving and not allow other fears into her head. “Just drive” should be the only thing she allowed herself to say to herself. Just drive as in I am only going to drive, the other stuff is beyond my control. I am just going to drive.

Triggers

Killing is a concept that is almost a universal trigger. It’s a huge thing no matter how grizzled you are. Firearms are lethal weapons and should be treated as such. To take the steam out of this monster, I think you should really look at it with both eyes open. Face it. There are many ways ranging from a shrink to game guide.

In lots of interviews with combat vets where the question comes up of how they can kill, the subject of hunting comes up almost immediately from those with hunting experience prior to military service. If you aren’t a vegetarian, it seems only ethical that you kill, dress, and eat your own meal at least once in your life. We all know that meat comes from animals, not Styrofoam and plastic wrap, but how many of us really own that? Hunting changes people, I think for the better, even if it is only once. A new respect for life and ones place in nature (which includes man by the way). There are plenty of people at hunters safety class that would be more than willing to tag along with you and a friend on your first hunt. Fowl or ruminant, professional guides can help a lot too.

The next trigger is kind of two sided. The threat of death of ones self or a loved one. I think it is a testament to the good in human nature that most people seem to make peace their maker or with “fade to black” when it comes to a threat to themselves much more easily than they do when it comes to a threat to their loved ones. Both can cause panic and stupid decisions or non-decisions.

If some criminal has a gun to your kids head and tells you to drop your gun, the question you need to ask yourself is what is he going to do to your kid once you are disarmed? I will almost always take the shot but it’s a decision you are going to arrive at your own way. The best way to deal with any fear is to take as much of the unknown out of it as possible. Look at it naked with both eyes open and see what you find.


As I said before, Im just some guy that can type and post stuff to a gun forum. If this stuff makes sense to you or not, its up to you to use credible, accountable people and information to address it for yourself. I hope this stuff can at least get you started.

Best wishes,

Gax
 
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I'm over being an accessory to my own victimization.

Ginger-

I'm over being an accessory to my own victimization.

I just loved reading that. I obviously had some time on my hands today with all of the posts. Its just the best thing I read all day.
 
Absolutely

I would kill to defend myself, another or sensitive property. I have fired weapons in combat situations, am familiar with the emotional response and do not think that it would be any harder to rationalize/justify doing so to protect yourself/loved one/domicile than it is to protect "democracy" in a country that isn't interested in personal freedom. Just my $0.02... lots of good marines I served with did have some problems after taking the lives of people who were actively killing our brothers.

I don't want to look at the world like there is a scumbag around every corner and a rapist under every bed

Where I live there's a meth dealer on every corner and a child molester in every neighborhood, and as has been posted by the OP things are probably going to be getting worse before they get better. For that reason I am armed and ready.
 
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