Not "should I shoot?" but "could I shoot?" That is the question.

So uhhh, what ya wearin?

Could I shoot a BG, yep. But so many anti gun advocates on this forum have convinced me that in an encounter with a BG my shot will miss him, and even if I hit him my handgun is underpowered and he will live. So I guess I'll just call 911 instead.
Click to expand...

I ran into that too. I think its kind of a game for them.

They will claim to be professional trainers with all kinds of credentials and, when not just openly mocking people, they start spitting out stats.

Hell, according to what statistics you want to believe, far less than 1% of us will ever be involved in a situation where you need a firearm and of those, 91-99% of those situations will be resolved by just showing the gun. I'll leave the math to you but it basically means that we dont need to know how to shoot, or ever really pull the trigger at all. We don't even need bullets!

Didn't pass the smell test with me either.

Put your faith in yourself and what you know. When someone starts claiming to be this or that, its usually because they said something stupid. If what they say doesn't hold water, it doesn't hold water. Even if they are who they say they are (and you can bet their not), smart and highly educated people are just as full of &$#@ as the next guy. Sometimes even worse. If their credentials were enough to prove them right, why do so many smart and highly educated people vehemently disagree with each other?

Get an instructor but an Internet Forum isn't where I would go to find one.

The internet is good for a lot of things but I wouldn't trust anyone to be who they say they are.

Just picture the phone sex chicks, only with a gun....LOL

No offense meant to anyone in particular but I think its good advice in general.
 
Last edited:
There is an old saw in the army that teaches that you can never know a man until you have made a scout with him in bad weather. All the good qualities and bad in the human makeup force their way to the surface under the stimulus of privation and danger, and it not infrequently happens that the comrade who at the military post was most popular, by reason of charm of manner and geniality, returns from this trial sadly lowered in the estimation of his fellows, and that he who in the garrison was most retiring, self-composed, and least anxious to make a display of glittering uniform, has swept all before him by the evidence he has given of fortitude, equanimity, courage, coolness, and good judgment under circumstances of danger and distress.

John G. Bourke, Captain, 3rd Cavalry U.S.

From the book: On the Border With Crook
U. Neb. Press

We can talk about what we'll do all we want, and many do, but maybe we really don't know until the time comes.
 
Gaxicus, after your last post all I can say is - wow!!!

Do you know the definition of Irony? Please read your last post as a reference.

Thinly veiled attacks are still attacks on a forum member and are generally frowned upon.


enough of the chest thumping ( as already stated by spacemanspiff )
 
They taught me in a class....

Gaxicus, after your last post all I can say is - wow!!!

Do you know the definition of Irony? Please read your last post as a reference.

Thinly veiled attacks are still attacks on a forum member and are generally frowned upon.

enough of the chest thumping
Click to expand...

Im not sure where the irony is, I have never claimed to be an expert or anything, quite the opposite, I dont claim to be anyone but some person that can surf the net and type.

Im just typing my mind here. Saying that people should never rely on anyone to be who they say they are on the internet is not insulting, its not mean, its just darn good advice. If its good enough for my kid in computer science class, its good enough for me.

The biggies-

No personal information. Im not posting my resume on an internet forum....sorry.
Don't rely on anyone to be who they say they are.

I didn't really feel any malice when I posted it. I laughed about the phone sex girls. You know the TV commercial when you hear their voice and they sound all sexy and stuff but then they show the person that is actually on the end of the line it is really not a very sexy person?

I was honestly just responding to another person here that has clearly shared in the experience I have had here. I meant it when I said "no harm to anyone in particular" but I don't think the subject I was replying to should be off limits.

I did read it again.. and again. Ok. I see what you mean. Not what I had in mind when I wrote it but I can see what you mean. Errghhh Let me think about that for a while. If it detracted from the thread or broke the forum rules I am sorry. Really.
 
Last edited:
To drop the word kill or lethal out of the discussion is sanitizing it to the point of irrelevance and doesnt help someone become OK and resolved with what they are choosing to do.
Click to expand...
We've been through this before, and nothing has changed. It is not sanitizing anything, it is presenting a valid and practical consideration. When you are shooting in self defense you don't care (or at least should not care) whether the person is killed or not. It is totally irrelvant to the situation. The goal is to stop the threat, to protect yourself. Sometimes (not often, BTW), that might result in a death.

All I'm trying to say is that we have a duty to be blunt/honest/crude/real in our choice of words/concepts/images when we have this discussions inside our own skulls.
Click to expand...
I agree, but the eis nothing about that duty to suggest someone has to want/be ready/actively consider/etc. trying to kill someone. That is not the goal. Emphasizing the kill part of the equation distorts the picture, IMO, rather than helping clarify it. My duty is to protect myself and my loved ones. My clients duty is to protect themselves and their loved ones. That is the reality.
 
They will claim to be professional trainers with all kinds of credentials and, when not just openly mocking people, they start spitting out stats.
Click to expand...
Can you identify anyone on this forum who has claimed to be a professional trainer who does not have any of the credentials they have said they have, or that is not a credentialed trainer? I'm sure lots of us would like to know who that is, if you have anything to support it, of course.
 
Can you identify anyone on this forum who has claimed to be a professional trainer who does not have any of the credentials they have said they have, or that is not a credentialed trainer? I'm sure lots of us would like to know who that is, if you have anything to support it, of course
Click to expand...

As you probably know, I was responding to a person that posted about his experiences. He didn't name any names and, to me, seemed to speaking in general terms. For me to speculate as to specific names he was talking about would be futile. He spoke generally, so did I. He brought up a point and I responded to it. He mentioned no names, so how could I be specific to a person or persons at all when only the original poster knows the answer to that question?

If the shoe fits and it hurts, its not my fault for making the shoe. Its your fault for jamming your foot in it.

Gax
 
I've thought about this both from my own thoughts and the obligatory discussions with family and friends when I stated my intention towards getting a rifle for range/hunting and a gun for the home.

In the cold light of day and imminent attack far from likely I wrestle with this and it scares me no end. However, in the situation, if the need is apparent and the consequences of not shooting are dire to myself or those looking to me for protection, then I think I would do it without a being even able to think.

I've been in a couple of situations where I was under attack and another where someone was breaking into my home (both were years ago when I was a student and living in not so great part of the world). I'm no Rambo, but in both situations I surprised myself with the speed and effectiveness of my response - fast, instinctive and brutal - in both cases I think I won because they were just as surprised as me!! I think/hope I haven't lost that instinct.

Now, ask me how I would feel AFTER shooting.... that would be a dark time I think. I hope this never becomes more than just an academic exercise!
 
Two things:

1. If you are going to disparage credentials - then it seems to me that you post yours. Also, if your post isn't to the discussion but to make snide remarks - you are at risk here.

2. To avoid folk wisdom on dealing with after incident stress - here's a list of articles relevant to police dealing with such. There is a good deal of overlap with what a civilian might face after a shooting. The books Cop Shock, Deadly Force Encounters and Klinger's are good easy reads. If you are serious, they are better sources of info than Internet rambling or anecdotes

Addis, M. E., & carpenter, K. M. (1999). Why, why, why?: Reason giving and rumination as predictors of response to activation- and insight oriented treatment rationales. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 55(7), 881-894.

Adler, A. B., Litz, B. T., Castro, C. A., Suvak. M., Thomas, J. L., Burrell, L., McGurk, D. Wright, K. M., & Bliese, P. D. (2008). A group randomized trial of critical incident stress debriefing provided to U.S. peacekeepers. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 21, 253–263.

Angelo, F. N., Miller, H. E., Zoellner, L. A., & Feeny, N. C. (2008). “I need to talk about it”: A qualitative analysis of trauma-exposed owmen’s reasons for treatment choice. Behavior Therapy, 39 (1), 13-21.

Artwohl, A., & Christensen, L. W. (1997). Deadly force encounters: What cops need to know to mentally and physically prepare for and survive a gunfight. Boulder, CO: Paladin Press.

Becker, C. B., Darius, E., Schaumberg, K. (2007). An analog study of patient preferences for exposure versus alternative treatments for posttraumatic stress disorder. Behaviour Research & Therapy, 45, 2861-2873.

Becker, C. B., Zayfert, C., & Anderson, E. (2004). A survey of psychologists' attitudes towards and utilization of exposure therapy for PTSD. Behaviour Research & Therapy, 42, 277-292.

Cahill, S. P., Foa, E. B., Hembree, E. A., Marshall, R. D., & Nacash, N. (2006). Dissemination of exposure therapy in the treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 19 (5), 597-610.

Devilly, G. J., Gist, R. & Cotton, P. (2006). Ready! Fire! Aim! The status of psychological debriefing and therapeutic interventions: In the work place and after disasters. Review of General Psychology, 10 (4), 318-345.

Dowling, F. G., Moynihan, G. & Genet, B. (2006). A peer-based assistance program for officers with the New York City Police Department: Report of the effects of Sept. 11, 2001. American Journal of Psychiatry, 63, 151-153.

Foa, E. B., Cashman, L., Jaycox, L., & Perry, K. (1997). The validation of a self-report measure of posttraumatic stress disorder: The Posttraumatic Diagnostic Scale. Psychological Assessment, 9(4), 445-451.

Foa, E. B., Keane, T. M., & Friedman, M. J. (Eds.). (2000). Practice guidelines from the international society for traumatic stress studies: Effective treatments for PTSD. New York: The Guilford Press.

Foy, D. W., Kagan, B., McDermott, C., Leskin, G., Sipprelle, R. C., & Paz, G. (1996). Practical parameters in the use of flooding for treating chronic PTSD. Clinical Psychology and Psychotherapy, 3(3), 169-175.

Freiheit, S. R., Vye, C., Swan, R. & Cady, M. (2004). Cognitive-behavioral therapy for anxiety: Is dissemination working? Behavior Therapist, 27, 25-32.

Gersons, B. P. R., Carlier, I. V. E., Lamberts, R. D., & van der Kolk, B. A. (2000). Randomized clinical trial of brief eclectic psychotherapy for police officers with posttraumatic stress disorder. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 13(2), 333-347.

Gist, R., & Devilly, G. J. (2002) Post-trauma debriefing: the road too frequently traveled. The Lancet, 360,741-742.

Kates, A. R. (1999). CopShock: Surviving post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Tucson, AZ. Holbrook Street Press.

Klinger, D. (2006). Into the Kill Zone: A cop’s eye view of deadly force. San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass.

Lilienfeld, S. O. (2007). Psychological treatments that cause harm. Perspectives on Psychological Science, 2(1), 53-70.

Lindauer, R. L., Gersons, B. P., van Meijel, E. P., Blom, K., Carlier, I. Vrijlandt, V. I. & Olff, M. (2005). Effects of brief eclectic psychotherapy in patients with Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: Randomized clinical trial. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 18, 205-212.

Miller, L. (2006). Practical police psychology. Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas, Publisher.

Najavits, L. M. (2006). Present- versus past-focused therapy for posttraumatic stress disorder/substance abuse: A study of clinician preferences. Brief Treatment and Crisis Intervention, 6(3), 248-254.

Resick, P. A., Ni****h, P., Weaver, T. L., Astin, M. C., & Feuer, C. A. (2002). A comparison of cognitive-processing therapy with prolonged exposure and a waiting condition for the treatment of chronic posttraumatic stress disorder in female rape victims. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 70(4), 867-879.

Resick, P. A., & Schnicke, M. K. (1992). Cognitive processing therapy for sexual assault victims. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 60, 748-756.

Rosen, C. S., Chow, H.S., Finney, J.F., Greenbaum, M.A., Moos, R.H., Javaid, I.S., Yesavage, J.A. (2004). VA practice patterns and practice guidelines for treating posttraumatic stress disorder. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 17, 213-222.

Rothbaum, B. O., Astin, M. C., Marsteller, F. (2005). Prolonged exposure versus eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) for PTSD rape victims. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 18, 607-616.

Tarrier, N., Liversidge, T., Gregg, L. (2006). The acceptability and preference for the psychological treatment of PTSD. Behaviour Research and Therapy, 44(11), 1643-1656.

van Emmerik, A. A., Kamphuis, J. H., Hulsbosch, A. M., & Emmelkamp, P. M. (2002). Single session debriefing after psychological trauma: a meta-analysis. The Lancet, 360, 766-771.

Volanti, J. M., Andrew, M. E., Burchfiel, C. M., Dorn, J., Hartley, T., & Miller, D. B. (2006). Posttraumatic stress symptoms and subclinical cardiovascular disease in police officers. International Journal of Stress Management, 13 (4), 541-554.

Wright, L., Borrill, J., Teers, R., & Cassidy, T. (2006). The mental health consequences of dealing with self-inflicted death in custody. Counseling Psychology Quarterly, 19 (2), 165-180.

Young, J., Connolly, K., & Lohr, J. M. (2008). Fighting the good fight by hunting the dodo bird to extinction: ABCT’s dissemination effort. Behavior Therapist, 31(5), 97-100.

Zoellner, L. A., Feeny, N. C., Cochran, B., & Pruitt, L. (2003). Treatment choice for PTSD. Behaviour Research & Therapy, 41, 879-886.
 
He didn't name any names and, to me, seemed to speaking in general terms. For me to speculate as to specific names he was talking about would be futile.
Click to expand...
Oh, I see. So, when you say "They will claim to be professional trainers with all kinds of credentials ..." you actually have no idea if the peson being discussed is a trainer or what their credentials are. Basically, you are just making stuff up instead of basing your comments on any real basis of knowledege or facts. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
Good post, Glenn.

I'd like to second the recommendation for Klinger's Into the Kill Zone. Have it sitting next to my elbow this morning for another project, and have to say that in addition to being a useful resource, it's very much a great read.

pax
 
<pulling the Moderator hat on>

No more personal remarks in this thread, please.

</moderator hat>

pax
 
Has anyone started off using guns for hunting ? Hunting will teach you many things. How to take a life is part of it. How you may or may not feel after taking a life. People i.m.o. are just another form of animal.
 
Glenn,
Beautiful post.

and I can add a +1 for....

Artwohl, A., & Christensen, L. W. (1997). Deadly force encounters: What cops need to know to mentally and physically prepare for and survive a gunfight. Boulder, CO: Paladin Press.
Click to expand...
 
When the defender has to switch to an offensive mindset.

We just moved into a home with 3 floors. Typically, the master bedroom is upstairs along with the others. Not in my place. The previous occupants made kind of a suite out of the entire basement. Its a heck of a master bedroom and my sweety loves it. However much we like it down there, it presents some interesting home defense issues.

Ill just start with the classic home defense scenario where there is the sound of breaking glass etc. we are in our little basement suite and hear it.

Its very difficult to break in the basement quietly because of the way the window wells are constructed and the top floor would be very difficult because any points of entry are up very high and there is no concealment or good climbing holds. Chances are very good that a forced entry would occur on the main floor above me.

I haven't lived in a basement since I was a kid so its kind of a rethink.

The rest of the bedrooms where my kids sleep are upstairs. This puts the bad guy(s) between me and my kids from the moment they break in. This bothers me and introduces some real problems to say the least.

After a lot of thinking and a long hard look at what I could live with and what I couldn't, I reached the following conclusion:

I will secure my kids. There is no way I can sit downstairs with the phone and let people that just broke into my home have unrestricted access to my children. Smart or not, I just cant realistically see me being able to do it.

If I have to go through the bad guys to protect my kids, so be it. The bad guys put me in this position and I don't owe them anything. No macho chest beating here. I would rather have my kids in the room with me and the phone and let the cops clear the house believe me. As you can see, the layout of the house isn't very likely to allow that.

So, back to the scenario, there I am in my BVDs and kevlar ready to go upstairs and clear my way to my kids. An ugly visual for you to match an ugly situation. The basement stairs come up into a very central part of the main floor. This puts me in a very exposed position the very moment I reach the main floor where, hopefully, the bad guys still are. I may be exposed but I can see a lot of the house and anyone on the main floor would be even more exposed.

I believe that legally/morally I am still defending my home and family but I think its worth discussing that when I am steeling myself to go upstairs, I have changed to an offensive mindset. I have to clear my may to my kids. I am advancing against/through the threat. That is offense is it not? My tactic isnt "hold ground and secure" it is "take ground and secure".......offense.

I know there is kind of a militant insistence on always talking defense and any thought of offense or attacking is seriously frowned upon...for good legal reason but in this discussion of "could I?", I think it makes sense to discuss an offensive mindset.

What would be going through your mind when you are standing at the bottom of the stairs in your BVDs and kevlar?
What do you need to focus on? What can you give? What cant you? All that.

This is seriously the layout of my house and I dont see it changing for a while. Baby loves it. I have some ideas to help security etc, but I thought my situation might be good food for thought when you imagine readying yourself to go upstairs. Could you go on offense?
 
Last edited:
Hunting

Has anyone started off using guns for hunting ? Hunting will teach you many things. How to take a life is part of it. How you may or may not feel after taking a life. People i.m.o. are just another form of animal.
Click to expand...



I started hunting when I was pretty young. I hunted a lot. Things happened in my life as I got older that kind of made hunting not as appealing to me anymore. I will still hunt if it is indeed a hunt and not just sniping and/or killing but the urge just isnt there very often anymore. I will still take my kids so they can hunt rabbits but I stick mostly to handgun hunting on the rare occasion that I hunt myself.

I had some pretty good discussions with a guy that insisted that it is unethical to eat meat unless, at least once, a person had killed and dressed their meal.

I know its not exactly what you are talking about but I think hunting does really push people to explore and own that part of their nature, if thats what you are getting at.

BTW I agree with the guy I mentioned. I agree with him more frequently than ever. Good outlook on things. Everyone needs a guy like that in their life.
 
Last edited:
Book List

To avoid folk wisdom on dealing with after incident stress - here's a list of articles relevant to police dealing with such. There is a good deal of overlap with what a civilian might face after a shooting. The books Cop Shock, Deadly Force Encounters and Klinger's are good easy reads. If you are serious, they are better sources of info than Internet rambling or anecdotes
Click to expand...

The list you posted is a keeper. Pasted into an email to myself.

Right now I am in the middle of reading some Richard Marcinko books that I have been promising to read since I was given them for Christmas. They are ony loosely topical to whats being discussed here but good reads anyway. Rogue Warrior was a page turner. Loved it.

Thanks for putting the time in to make such a list.
 
Many years ago (when my daughters were 3 & 4 - now 38 & 39) two BG's broke into my house while we were home watching TV. I grabbed my 357 and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived (was in San Diego county so LEO's arrived within 5 minutes of my wife calling. No shots fired by me thank God.

I now live in rural southern Oregon and have my carry permit and knowing that law enforcement is not available for close to an hour from the time you call 911 (unless they happen to be in the area - highly unlikely) I do not think that I would hold them at gunpoint. With my training and my personal beliefs today, if a similar situation happened I would defend my person and my family with necessary force to end the situation.

I am not advocating this stance for anyone else but at soon to be 60 years of age and knowing what I do now I would be 100% prepared to end the situation with all of the force deemed required.
 
I haven't read all of these post, but I will agree with something Kel said earlier.

If you are not prepared to use that gun, you had better not pull it on someone. And, If you have not seriously decided this question within yourself, you should not carry a gun.

Personally I would never take someones life over any of my personal property or "stuff", but I would not hesitate one second if my loved one's life was at stake.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top