No Time to Rack the Slide

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I'm not quite sure which "their" David Armstrong meant in that last post. Not trying to be a wiseguy, just not sure who "they" are.
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My bad, I misread the post. Trying to get some stuff done in a hurry. Should have read "your" instead of "their".
So far, this thread seems to hold two major camps.
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I think you left out a camp. How about the "each has advantages and disadvantages, but most of the time it doesn't even matter, so figure out what is best for you in your particular situation" camp. Also, I think you have presented camps 1 and 2 in a distinctly biased manner, FWIW.
Still, nobody has shown any statistics supporting the argument that a chambered round is a great threat to the operator.
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One might also point out that nobody has shown any statistics supporting the argument that carrying with an empty chamber is a great threat to the operator either. But even without the stats, I think most folks if they are honest about it will admit there are a lot more AD/NDs than shootings of BGs. Whether or not that is an issue is a separate discussion, IMO.
 
Well, since there are supposed 1M to 2M DGUs and no shots fired in 95% of time (if Kleck holds up) - then it is clear that that the ND rate must be significant less than the failure to win the day rate as that can be done with no ammo in the gun. There aren't 1M NDs.

So, is it legit to compare the rate of failures to actual win the day in a gun fight where shots were to be fired with or without a round chambered to the rate of actually ND in what situations?

Kid getting the gun, you putting it a box, pulling the trigger by mistake - or what? I've seen two videos of officers running up to a fight and putting their fingers on the trigger having an ND.

It would be really hard to come up with a solid decision analysis on this one with comparable situations.
 
Biases and AD's

I don't think I'm showing bias, so much as frustration. Posters claim that their beliefs are based on statistics vs anecdotes, but then fail to cite any pertinent statistics. That makes their claims seem somehow condescending, at least to me.

I will grant, based on own observation while deployed with the military, that AD/ND events happen. However, the majority of those with which I've been acquainted occurred at the loading barrels, where people chamber and unchamber rounds from sidearms and rifles. I never understood why certain quarters made such a big issue of AD at the barrels; it's why we have barrels...

However, the ND's I've read reports on tended to be along these lines:

1) Airman is walking with chambered round in M16, holding rifle by pistol grip. Airman falls. Claims finger was not on trigger, and safety failed. Selector found in semi-auto position. No injuries. Investigators think airman's finger was on trigger.

2) Security guards are bored, and decide to practice quick-draw with M9 pistols. One shoots the other in abdomen. Victim dies.

IE, it's not the chambered round, it's the mishandling of the weapon, either by improper selection of safety position, or gross stupidity.

Please cite some stats showing the risk of AD from a properly handled weapon.
 
Huh?? The choice of where I live has nothing to do with owning a gun, or carrying a gun. I would suggest that owning a gun for self defense is quite a different issue than being afraid to leave your door unlocked on your house at any time.

You must have missed the intended sarcasm. I should have added an emoticon. Locked doors and self-defense gun ownership are actually two expressions of the same basic need...self-preservation. Again...I think neither are relevant to the discussion at hand.

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Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?

Because it fits their personal situation better.

In all seriousness...what does that mean? That I should carry chamber empty because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling? I guess I'm actually looking for a more defineable physical advantage which would be conferred by chamber empty carry.

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No, as in the 'we who do research on topics like this instead dof relying on anecdotes.'

I agree with you...anecdotes are questionable. Which is why I don't base my carry mode on them.
 
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One handed slide racking

I am new to this site, but my Colt .45 80 Series Government Model has been my only semi-auto pistol since 1984 and I've been reloading and shooting handguns for better than 37 years. But I have to plead ignorance here and ask....How do you rack a slide one-handed?
 
One handed slide racking

Thanks DonR - After reading your response on the one-handed slide rack technique, I vote to flip the thumb safety off and fire the cartridge already in the chamber.
 
Hook the rear sight on your belt, holster or heal of your boot.
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This doesn't work if you have snag-free sights common to many concealed carry guns. So then you have to hook the muzzle end (which is really hard if you have a FLGR and adds an additional layer of danger to the rack because of a lack of muzzle safety) or do a friction rack by pressing the top of the slide against your thigh or hip with enough force that it will be held in place with friction as you push against the gun to cause it to rack.

Most ranges will not let you practice any of these one-handed racks because of muzzle orientation/safety issues.
 
One handed rack for shotgun

Once upon a time, they also taught us how to rack a 12ga pump one handed, by gripping the pump between knees or thighs. At least the muzzle is usually well clear of body parts during this technique.

With pistols, not so much...

I haven't had a lot of formal training compared to many TFL members, but what training I have received was from USMC and SF instructors, so I had the opportunity to practice these techniques with live rounds. (As stated by Double Naught Spy, ranges are not likely to let you do these things)

I think my favorite instructor line (vehicle extrication drill) was:

"Don't shoot the truck! It's leased!"

Amazingly, we didn't shoot the truck.
 
Stupid question

I have to confess ignorance here:

Why is it safe to leave the hammer down on a live round with a DA revolver or a DA auto? Is it just a function of the higher force required to move the hammer back? What keeps an impact on the hammer from firing off the round?

I was taught that it's safe to carry my Sig P220 that way (decocker only), but nobody ever actually explained why it's safe.
 
Mleake,

Modern DA revolvers and DA autos are designed and built to safely be carried hammer down on a chambered round, older pre-Vietnam era firearms it just a toss-up. From beefed up firing-pin springs (non-series 80 1911) to pistol hammers that don't drop far enough to impact the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled, then there are transer-safety bars. Different manufactureers use differnet designs.

thmsmgnm
 
This doesn't work if you have snag-free sights common to many concealed carry guns. So then you have to hook the muzzle end (which is really hard if you have a FLGR and adds an additional layer of danger to the rack because of a lack of muzzle safety) or do a friction rack by pressing the top of the slide against your thigh or hip with enough force that it will be held in place with friction as you push against the gun to cause it to rack.
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I have never had that issue, but I also won't use Novak style sights. I've never had a problem doing it with Heinie Straight 8s, Trijicons or Mepros. I also put a piece of skateboard tape on top of the slide in front of the rear sight.


Most ranges will not let you practice any of these one-handed racks because of muzzle orientation/safety issues.
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Quite true, the same way most ranges won't let you practice from a holster.
 
this made me laugh:

MLeake
I think my favorite instructor line (vehicle extrication drill) was:

"Don't shoot the truck! It's leased!"

Amazingly, we didn't shoot the truck.
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That's funny cause my buddy shot through the window (thinking it was open), I laughed he paid.
 
That's funny cause my buddy shot through the window (thinking it was open), I laughed he paid.
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That's why you use junkers, running junkers if you need to drive them, but junkers none the less. If you shoot enough around, near, over or under them, they will eventually get hit. Stuff happens.
 
DonR, there was an article in The American Rifleman some fifty years ago about an MP (might have been an SP, since I vaguely recall that he was stationed at Key West) who by military regulation had to carry with an empty chamber and the hammer down in the GI flap-type holster.

Open the flap, draw, snag the military-type rear sight on his pistol belt and then have at it. He demonstrated that it was faster than using his other hand to rack the slide, plus there was the benefit of having the other hand free to fend off somebody or pull his nightstick.

Art
 
A good topic draws lots of debate .... Like this one. My only carry gun is a Keltec P3AT. I ALWAYS have one in the chamber ready to fire. The P3 is small and sometimes hard to slingshot the slide in a confined place .... like sitting in the front seat of your car with the steering wheel in the way. I would hate for that one time I have to rack the slide and the edge of the hollowpoint round fails to chamber properly and hangs up on something internal .... This exact thing can happen to any gun whether it is a $250 Keltec or a $1250 custom Kimber.
Those precious seconds of trying to clear a jam may cost you dearly.
What happens if your attacker jumps out and cuts your arm with a knife disabling your arm?
What happens if the bad guy has you over the hood of your car and you have one arm trying to keep him pushed away?
What if it's not a bad guy but a big loose pit bull that comes out of nowhere and grabs your arm that you threw up to defend yourself against his bite?
What if it's a gang banger that comes up to your window from the blind side of your car, and you have one arm tied up putting on your seat belt. Now you are totally vulnerable. Can you stop this car jacking with an empty gun?
What if you are coming from the store and loading groceries in your car and one hand is wrapped up in the plastic bag handles .... Or you are strapping your child or grandshild on their car seat ???

In every one of the above scenario's .... it is virtually impossible to get a round in the chamber in time when the bad guy jumps you or is in your face from out of nowhere. It may be impossible to even get a round in, period. The obvious solution is to keep one in the pipe ....keep that gun loaded as you are not always in a situation where you have both hands free.
That is your only insurance that you can get a shot off fast enough.
Ohio Rusty ><>
Psalms 27:1-3/Psalms 91:9-11 (AMP)
 
DonR, there was an article in The American Rifleman some fifty years ago about an MP (might have been an SP, since I vaguely recall that he was stationed at Key West) who by military regulation had to carry with an empty chamber and the hammer down in the GI flap-type holster.

Open the flap, draw, snag the military-type rear sight on his pistol belt and then have at it. He demonstrated that it was faster than using his other hand to rack the slide, plus there was the benefit of having the other hand free to fend off somebody or pull his nightstick.
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I believe I know the article you're talking about, I think it may have been republished in the 70's or 80's. IIRC, he did it static without someone actually trying to knock his brains in. Don't get me wrong, chamber empty can be a viable option through training, Israel has done it for years. They also train that way from day one. But the reality is that most people won't train it to the point that they are proficient at combatives like an Israeli Commando.
I've been handcuffed at various times by the same type of restriction(empty chamber) usually based on someone's(leadership) lack of knowledge, training and proficiency.
 
Train the way you carry, and carry the way you train.

Most of us live comfortable middle or upper class lifestyles. Danger is simply not lurking around every corner.

Nonetheless, we carry because we know -- and it has been demonstrated -- that even the upscale mall or neighborhood which "feels" safe, can be violated without notice.

Carrying chambered requires absolute discipline, rigid training, and a strict manual of arms. The gun may be safe while on your person, but it is an ever-present danger while off your person. Where is it when you are in the shower? or in bed? or out washing the car? When the gun is removed do you lock it up? or clear the chamber?

Every moment that chambered weapon is off your person is exposure to Murphy's Law. You need to get it right 100% of the time, all of your life. Murphy only needs one chance to wipe out your lifetime perfect record.

Some gun owners may not have the opportunity to adequately train for chambered carry, or may feel they lack the discipline required. This is not to be mocked; it is a demonstration of sound judgement, and understanding of their limitations. (Certainly, all of us can think of one time when we did something stupid with a chambered weapon.)

However, considerations regarding response time and the likelihood of losing the gun to an assailant are valid. I would encourage proponents of non-chambered carry to reconsider their commitment to training. Training will bring more confidence.

Additionally, that gun is meant to protect your loved ones -- buy one with multiple safeties protecting the chambered round (trigger, drop, striker). The fine choices available leave no excuse for a cheap, unsafe gun.

In any event, train the way you carry, and carry the way you train. When the threat strikes, you will be surprised and frightened. Blood is drained from your extremities and rushes to your core organs. Clear thinking will be difficult, fine motor skills are degraded and simple procedures (racking the slide) will become complex.

Your success will depend on learned habit and muscle memory. Everything you do sloppy in training, you will do sloppy during the threat. Everything you do right in training, will support you facing the threat.
 
No Time To Rack Remington 870...

When a murder suspect, still armed with a .38 special revolver, UNEXPECTEDLY responded to my command to come out from his hiding place.

Fortunately, he focused on the muzzle of my issue 12 gauge and quickly determined that he wanted to go peaceably. HE never knew the difference!
 
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