No Time to Rack the Slide

[FerFAL]

Wyocarp wrote:
Time? Are people not aware of their surroundings? I've not been attacked by a person. I have had several different attacks by animals. There are no animals quicker than lions and bears. I've had both happen. They are so quick that people would look like they aren't moving in comparison. I'm not convinced of the time thing.

You think that bears and lions are more lethal than people?
Try checking out how many people lions or bears kill, vs. the amount of people humans kill.

Also, try some force on force classes. You’ll quickly understand why you need to be able to shoot with one hand, and always carry with a round in the chamber.
Against a younger, stronger adversary, you’ll have no chance without a chambered round, you’ll be beaten to pudding, specially at the ranges attacks are likely to occur on the street.

FerFAL

 

[David Armstrong]

That was a course at a range.

Sorry, but it is pretty tough to get that timer into action during a real gunfight. But as the issue was one of time, how much is needed, how much the racking adds, etc. the range is the best place to do that. And we find that there just isn't enough difference in the time for it to matter much.

In the civilian world you MUST prepare for the worst,....

Why? The worst rarely happens, and being prepared for the normal works almost all the time. Very few of us, if any, are always prepared for the owrst all the time. We all compromise.

if you can not rack your pistol while fending off one or more badguys (and it will happen, badguys are 3D and not stapled to a target board at known ranges..) You are dead, and just gave the badguy more to carry in the form of your weapon, if you have family or friends with you they just might be killed by your weapon.

Again, if this was much of a problem, we’d have seen it by now. We haven’t. In fact, just the opposite, we have not seen any evidence that the quick draw ability makes a difference. So, I guess we have that traditional problem...should we worry about something that is made up and would be very rare, or should we base decisions on what is normal and common? More important, IMO, is why one should get so excited if another chooses a different sort of solution to meet their different situation?

You have locks and you probably use them, so why would anyone NOT load their weapon they have the right to carry and defend themselves and others?

Depending on the situation, I might lock the doors at times, at others I might not. There is more to the home life than a single "keep everyone outside" situation. And there is far more to life and CCW than the gunfight.

My view is centered on having the arm out of action.

Right Glenn, that is probably the most valid reason, and of course it is part of that situational analysis. If you only have one arm available, chamber-empty carry is probably not a very good choice. Of course, one could also argue that given that situation an autoloader might not be the best choice either. lots of variables coming into play.

 

[David Armstrong]

The "statistics" represent historical data that are mutually exclusive from whatever situation you may find yourself in when you need a gun. Such data are not good for predicting what may or may not happen to YOU in YOUR situation.

On the contrary, they are very good about predicting exactly that. The stats won't always get it right, but they do predict to a pretty good degree what may happen, or what may not happen. And far from being mutually exclusive, your situation becomes part of the ever-growing database one can use to make those predictions. It is no different than using statistics to predict any other danger.

Hope is not a viable strategy & empty chamber carry is utter foolishness.

And yet we have seen over and over how so many of what most consider to be some of the best fighters in the world, in some of the toughest places in the world, opt for that "utter foolishness." I guess that it works so well for them they just haven't needed to find out what was wrong with it.

 

[David Armstrong]

Some of us have been to the dark woods and are merely pointing out that we've seen the critters...and that you might want to be ready.

And others, who have also been in the dark woods and seen plenty of critters, are suggesting that if your version of "ready" is determined by whether or not you walk around with a round chambered, you probably aren't ready. I carry chamber loaded, I carry chamber empty, and at times I don't carry at all. But that has nothing to do with me being ready.

 

[MLeake]

Empty revolver chamber? One-arm practice?

Do any of the posters who recommend chamber empty carry for SA autos also recommend carrying DA revolvers with the hammer on an empty chamber?

For David Armstrong: I don't think people are talking about knowing they will have only one arm to use, in advance, so much as suggesting the possibility that an arm will be disabled early in the fight via bullet wound, knife wound, grab, or pinning of the body by the assailant(s).

Given those criteria, do the range timed tests use any scenarios where shooters are 1) evading an attack while attempting to draw and chamber; or 2) drawing and attempting to rack the slide using rear sights against belt or nearby solid object? If not, then time comparisons are a bit incomplete.

Note: practicing use of belt, boot top, or other solid object to rack a pistol could be hazardous; obviously, use of inert training ammo would be safest for this, but such practice is useful.

 

[FerFAL]

David Armstrong wrote:
Depending on the situation, I might lock the doors at times, at others I might not. There is more to the home life than a single "keep everyone outside" situation.

Why would you leave your door unlocked???

FerFAL

 

[David Armstrong]

Do any of the posters who recommend chamber empty carry for SA autos also recommend carrying DA revolvers with the hammer on an empty chamber?

Although some in the past used to suggest that, I don't think anyone does any more given a modern revolver. Looked at logically, chamber empty in the revolver does not change the dynamics of anything except ammo capacity.

....so much as suggesting the possibility that an arm will be disabled early in the fight via bullet wound, knife wound, grab, or pinning of the body by the assailant(s).

Sure. There are all sorts of possibilities. My point is fairly simple: if these possibilities were much of a problem in real life we would have found out about it by now. But, on the contrary, we just don't see any evidence of that being an issue. You can create any possibility to prove a point, but one needs to see just how realistic that possibility is.

not, then time comparisons are a bit incomplete.

The time comparisons were not meant to be complete. They were meant to deal with a specific issue, that of the time needed to get a round off between chambered and unchambered firearm. Again, that is the realistic question. If one wants to test for all sorts of low-likelihood probabilities, I'm all for it.

Why would you leave your door unlocked???

Well, yesterday we were having a little party. Sort of silly to keep locking and unlocking doors as the guests move around from the house to the patio to the deck to the game room. So all the outside doorw were unlocked. Right now the front door is unlocked, but the back door is locked. I don't feel particularly fearful of boogie men running in through the door. When I go to sleep tonight, after my daughter gets back in, we'll lock up. I'll probably lock up tomorrow while I'm at work, although I've left the place unlocked before so workmen could get in, and so on. Frankly, if I had to live someplace where I thought I needed to keep my house locked up 24 hours a day I think I'd move.

 

[FerFAL]

Man, it must be nice to live in such a safe place. I’d still lock the doors though.

If something ever did happen, not only the buggyman, but just a kid looking for cash to steal, even if it’s very unlikely, you’d want to kick your own butt for not using doors for their intended purpose: Keeping people out!

FerFAL

 

[FerFAL]

David Armstrong wrote:
Sure. There are all sorts of possibilities. My point is fairly simple: if these possibilities were much of a problem in real life we would have found out about it by now. But, on the contrary, we just don't see any evidence of that being an issue. You can create any possibility to prove a point, but one needs to see just how realistic that possibility is.

I know of a few cases where an empty chamber would have proven fatal, actually that applies to most shootings I know of (people I know, or cases I’ve been told of by my instructor )
1)Cop shooting with a wounded (useless) arm.
2)Civilian drawing and shooting while keeping the discharging bad guy’s gun away from his face.
3)Civilian shooting a carjacker while keeping him away with his weak hand.
Just to quickly mention a few.

I don’t know anyone that carries a pistol with an empty chamber. Most gun people I know of that have been in gunfights would consider it a laughable idea.

Why carry with an empty chamber anyway? To avoid AD?
I’m sure that most people that had AD thought that the gun was empty at the time.

FerFAL

 

[Nemsis]

Well I asked a good friend of mine who is a Chicago police officer this question and he said

and I quote" that don't make sense, it's like wiping before you poop"

 

[Chindo18Z]

My point is fairly simple: if these possibilities were much of a problem in real life we would have found out about it by now.

As in the Jeff Cooper literary style imperial "we"? Well..."we" have found out about it.. even if you haven't.

In my case, admittedly unlikely theoretical events have already occurred; thus shaping my point of view. I expect no one to adhere to my point of view, but I throw it out there for consideration by those who may be undecided. Otherwise known as "YMMV".

Frankly, if I had to live someplace where I thought I needed to keep my house locked up 24 hours a day I think I'd move.

Frankly, if you live someplace where you think you need to own a gun for self defense, you should probably also move.

Neither frank opinion is particularly relevant to the discussion. Nor is the recommended course of action reasonable for most of us.

Changing azimuth...

Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?

I'm willing to entertain a good reason, but I've yet to hear one.

Conversely, would it be a good idea to rotate the cylinder on my Colt, Smith, or Ruger revolvers so that the first DA trigger pull falls on an empty cylinder? Why or why not?

'Cause I'm thinking that we just might be on to a money-making training proposition here...

BTW: I'm enjoying the cut and thrust...so don't anyone take it personally.

 

[MLeake]

AD/ND

I don't ever remember reading about an AD or ND caused by a round having been chambered. The vast majority of AD/ND I've read about have been caused directly by operator error. One or two have been hangfire scenarios, but those may not have been appropriately handled by operators.

I have heard of sear failures causing additional, unintended follow-on shots, but I can't say I've heard of an AD caused by a chambered round, on its own.

Can anybody cite instances where AD or ND happened to a cocked and locked SA that did not involve operator error (finger on trigger; muzzle pointed someplace inappropriate, etc)?

 

[MLeake]

Unlikely events

It seems to me that while being mugged / attacked is statistically unlikely, that it would be even unlikelier to be mugged / attacked by somebody who did not attempt in any way to interfere with the victim's attempt to draw a weapon.

For example: Would a woman being attacked by a would-be rapist be likely to have both hands easily free?

We must have some seriously incompetent thugs in the US these days...

Side note: Trying to draw my 1911 from strongside IWB with weak hand is a real pain. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a comfortable crossdraw position...

 

[acetum]

I've skimmed threw some posts.... Here are my two cents....

I've carried a CCW for 12 years now, I've been in 2 shootings (3 dead bad guys). I shoot about 1000 rounds a month, all different scenario’s.

Both shootings happened at night: one caught me off guard (drive by shooting), the other I knew was coming (tried to rob the wrong guy, he lost I won, obviously).

Could I have chambered a round in both shootings? Yes. But why?

If you want to carry without one in the pipe then good for you. But don't ever have one in the pipe for any reason, unless you just racked it and are going to pull the trigger.

If you're going to carry one in the pipe, good for you too, then don't ever have your piece without one, including while you sleep, when you shower, or any other time. You train, you practice, and shoot, one way and only one way (in pipe or standby). Any other combinations and you cause doubt. Not only you but those around you. My wife knows that if she ever has too, she can pick up any of my firearms and pull the trigger.

My buddy was VBPD and now DALPD he's had 2 accidental discharges! He carries in stanby. I've had none. Statistics are good for politics in RL they mean doodoo.

 

[FerFAL]

MLeake worte:
Side note: Trying to draw my 1911 from strongside IWB with weak hand is a real pain. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a comfortable crossdraw position...

Bend your torso forward, chest pointed to the floor as much as you can (the more you bend, the easier it will be to draw)
With your weak hand going behind your back you grab the grip and draw.
That’s the standard weak hand draw, when the gun is on your strong side.

FerFAL

 

[jabotinsky]

Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?

I usually don't carry for personal protection, but generally leave my weapons with chamber empty so I don't have to focus on different "safety" mechanisms, knowing I or my wife or friend could pick up any weapon in the place, rack and fire.

 

[MLeake]

Carrying solely for the sake of transporting the weapon

Jabotinsky,

If you are transporting the weapon solely to transport it, why have any ammo in it at all? It would be safest to leave it with no round in chamber and no mag in the well, wouldn't it?

This seems like an apples and oranges comparison, when discussing what people do for SD carry...

 

[jabotinsky]

f you are transporting the weapon solely to transport it, why have any ammo in it at all? It would be safest to leave it with no round in chamber and no mag in the well, wouldn't it?

This seems like an apples and oranges comparison, when discussing what people do for SD carry...

Good question. The OP wasn't asking about CCW for self defense, just a generic "are there times an unchambered weapon can be a big problem?"

If you're talking about carrying, and if I was going to CCW in a bad place because I had absolutely no other choice, I'd want one in the pipe.

But my purpose for a permit is not to conceal carry frequently because of personal safety fears. In my state, I have to separate ammo from weapons during transport in different compartments, and need to be traveling to a dealer or range. With a CCW permit, that disappears. Taking an extra weapon out but no room in the bag? Throw it in your pocket. Want to have a piece in the glove compartment in case you get stuck somewhere? Don't need one chambered, but don't wanna have to fish for the mag? No problema. Want to carry something in your backpack on a camping trip just in case? Another flood has knocked out power and alarms in your neighborhood? ..the list goes on and on.

I have chosen in my life not to have a weapon instantly deployable at all times. And despite all the interesting posts in this thread, there remains very little evidence of significant numbers of weapon usage disasters due to keeping them unchambered.

 

[David Armstrong]

As in the Jeff Cooper literary style imperial "we"?

No, as in the "we who do research on topics like this instead dof relying on anecdotes."

Frankly, if you live someplace where you think you need to own a gun for self defense, you should probably also move.

Huh?? The choice of where I live has nothing to do with owning a gun, or carrying a gun. I would suggest that owning a gun for self defense is quite a different issue than being afraid to leave your door unlocked on your house at any time.

Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?

Because it fits their personal situation better.

 

[MLeake]

it fits whose personal situation better?

I'm not quite sure which "their" David Armstrong meant in that last post. Not trying to be a wiseguy, just not sure who "they" are.

So far, this thread seems to hold two major camps. One group is primarily focused on SD issues, and feels strongly that the tactical advantages to eliminating the added time and step (chance for things to go awry) are worth the suggested (but nowhere demonstrated on this thread) risk posed by carrying with a chambered round (cocked and locked SA or decocked DA).

The other group is more worried about AD/ND than SD, and feels the overall risk of the chambered round is greater than the risk of a blindside / ambush attack.

Still, nobody has shown any statistics supporting the argument that a chambered round is a great threat to the operator.

Academic/statistician types, please?