No rapid fire !!!

[Frank Ettin]

...But practicing double taps, and some rappid fire, along with being able to draw your pistol are good practical exercises....

Yes they are. But slow fire drills are also important to build and re-build good trigger control. After I finish practicing presentations from the holster and rapid strings (yes, one range I frequent let's customers who have taken certain classes there, and have been qualified, work from a holster and shoot fast), I like to run the target out to 25 yards and shoot 10 to 15 rounds slow fire just to keep programing good trigger control.

 

[AK103K]

Sadly, these are considered "well trained folks" by most.

The people I've had the most trouble with when I let them shoot my full auto guns, have almost always been with supposedly "trained" individuals, be they police or military. Just because someone was(is) a vet or a cop, doesnt mean they were properly trained, or are even competent. I've shot with a number of cops who were pretty scary. I've seen some, who are still active cops who had troubles at the 7 yard line with their issue handgun.

The people I've had the easiest time teaching, have almost always been women and very young kids. I cant remember one of them ever putting a round into the ceiling. Trained combat vets (and a few cops) on the other hand...

 

[darkgael]

Waste?

Slow shooting a pistol is a waste of time. Why bother? What's the point of shooting a gun under a very low-stress, slow fire scenario? Find someone with a lot of land in the Country with a berm and practice various shooting drills. You just can't get comfortable with a gun by firing one round no faster than ever 5 seconds at stationary paper targets.

If you can't shoot a gun accurately slow-fire, you can't shoot it accurately rapid fire. Careful, precise shooting practice affects every other type of gun handling.
All shooting that we do at the range is low stress, whether slow or rapid fire. There's never a threat of bodily harm from a target.
As far as shooting slowly in a SD situation is concerned.....is that a necessarily bad idea? Common practice for SD seems to focus on different forms of rapid fire. Why is that? After all, one precise well placed shot is all that is needed. (I know that it is far easier to write that than it is to do it, but still...)
I do understand that for many shooters a pistol is a defensive/offensive tool whose only purpose is to work well for them in one of those scenarios. For me and for a lot of other shooters, though, a firearm is a piece of "sporting goods", like a fishing rod, a baseball glove, a football. My .45's and other pistols (and my rifles and shotguns) are used far, far more frequently for competition and hunting than for combat. Those two viewpoints influence what is a "waste of time" and what isn't.
Pete

 

[AK103K]

If you can't shoot a gun accurately slow-fire, you can't shoot it accurately rapid fire. Careful, precise shooting practice affects every other type of gun handling.

Absolutely! If you dont have good basics and "properly" ingrained skills and cant shoot reasonably well, speed isnt going to help.

All shooting that we do at the range is low stress, whether slow or rapid fire. There's never a threat of bodily harm from a target.

This all depends on what type of practice your working on. There are some forms where there is bodily threat from the target (usually minor, but an active threat all the same), and there is a good deal of stress.

Sometimes you learn more with what appears to be a toy than you do with a real gun.

As far as shooting slowly in a SD situation is concerned.....is that a necessarily bad idea? Common practice for SD seems to focus on different forms of rapid fire. Why is that? After all, one precise well placed shot is all that is needed. (I know that it is far easier to write that than it is to do it, but still...)

You have to shoot at the speed and distance of the encounter. If time and distance allow, slow would be better, just do it quickly.

While one well placed shot is all thats needed in a perfect world, things are not that simple in the real world. That one well placed and deadly round, may take time to work out, and you too may well be dead at the end of it, if you dont continue to shoot until the threat is down and done.

The only right answer, is to shoot the target to the ground, and that takes whatever it takes.

My .45's and other pistols (and my rifles and shotguns) are used far, far more frequently for competition and hunting than for combat. Those two viewpoints influence what is a "waste of time" and what isn't.

Most of mine are too. For me though, there are more than just "two" viewpoints, and some of us continue farther into the abyss.

While there is a lot to be learned from them, you can only get so far with paper targets and basic forms of practice. I've learned and developed more in a couple of years of "playing with toys", than I have over the past 45+ years of constant practice with the real things. None of the "real" time was wasted (well, some of it maybe ), and a lot of it carried over, but a lot of ingrained "skills" needed to be adjusted or modified, and you would never know that if you didnt have a target that was actually trying to kill you just as hard as you were tying to kill it, and not just standing there waiting for you to shoot a nice little group into it and get a score.

 

[L_Killkenny]

Slow shooting a pistol is a waste of time. Why bother? What's the point of shooting a gun under a very low-stress, slow fire scenario? Find someone with a lot of land in the Country with a berm and practice various shooting drills. You just can't get comfortable with a gun by firing one round no faster than ever 5 seconds at stationary paper targets.

That post was so backwards it's not even funny. Handguns aren't just for SD and more guns are used for hunting everyday than are used for SD. Just plain dumb. Blowing thru ammo as fast as you can at a target close enough to touch is a WASTE OF TIME. Minimum distance for handgun shooting = 50' and goes up to 100yards. Some people think they see the boogie man behind every corner

LK

 

[hardluk1]

See if one of your range's has a practical shooting club that you can join. It is a dam site more fun shooting at different targets at different distances than at a fixed target . Our indoor range has a monday night match that anyone can shoot and then you can join the group for point matches at there out door shoots. I am the slowest in our bunch but still have a blast. Typicaly 32 shoots and round and can sign up for severial rounds.

 

[Re4mer]

There are two ranges around here. 1 allows rapid fire at about (3-6) consecutive shots and one only allows double taps. I understand the problem for public ranges however usually if you go to the same one they will let you bend the rules a bit. I do agree with some that mention how limiting this is to training techniques.

 

[darkgael]

more

There are some forms where there is bodily threat from the target (usually minor, but an active threat all the same), and there is a good deal of stress.

AK103K: Tell me more about that, if you have a moment.

Pete

 

[AK103K]

If your practicing force on force, especially close up, things can get physical between you and your opponent, as well as getting shot. Your first choice may not be to shoot, but to control your opponents weapon so he cant shoot you.

Your options for practice are endless and can be very realistic. In reality, your beyond practicing shooting and are now into practicing fighting, and there is PLENTY of stress for everyone.

If you think rapid fire draws trouble, see how well you make out getting them to let you do that at your local range.


There's no doubt the basics are important, and I cant imaging anyone would really dispute that. You have to learn to walk before you run. I suppose some are happy just getting to run. Some of us like to run, chew gum, and juggle at the same time.

 

[darkgael]

fighting

If your practicing force on force,

I understand the attraction of fighting for some people - at least, I understand that some folk (my son is one) find the attraction of force on force almost irresistible. Hand to hand fighting may have it's place but doesn't make one a better shooter.
I really don't understand the connection to practicing rapid fire with a gun. How does...under what circumstances can responsible handgun practice be less than benign for a shooter? Where's the threat?

Practice

can be very realistic.

.
Bottom line is that you know that you are not going to get shot.
If there is any doubt about that; if there exists the possibility that a shooter might get shot or shoot someone else during one of these "realistic" encounters, they are being irresponsible in a very big way. That scenario has all the elements of classic tragedy.
Pete

 

[JohnKSa]

Hand to hand fighting may have it's place but doesn't make one a better shooter.
I really don't understand the connection to practicing rapid fire with a gun.

Force on Force can also include firearm simulants. Either Airsoft, simunitions, or paintball guns can be used.

Most FoF scenarios are set up to happen at very close ranges which usually leads to rapid fire, often unaimed shooting.

I don't know about Airsoft, but simunitions & paintball hurt enough that there's a significant motivation to not get "shot".

 

[srt 10 jimbo]

Next time you go to the range, look at the metel brace that holds the carboard and your target. Is It all shot up? and these are from people who dont rapid fire.

 

[tmd11111]

Their range, their rules.

Can't put it any simpler then this. Only other option is to find someplace else to shoot. Or you can be grateful that you have a place to shoot and obide by the rules.

 

[AK103K]

Hand to hand fighting may have it's place but doesn't make one a better shooter.

It does if its part of the curriculum. Bullseye shooters might not have to fight off the target before they shoot, some others may. Even then, the bullseye shooter, or anyone for that matter, will benefit from the conditioning required to be a hand to hand fighter.

Bottom line is that you know that you are not going to get shot.

On the contrary, you usually do, and thats how you learn.

That scenario has all the elements of classic tragedy.

No more so than anything else.

Most FoF scenarios are set up to happen at very close ranges which usually leads to rapid fire, often unaimed shooting.

The shooting is usually fast and very often instinctive, and almost never "static". In fact, those who dont move are usually "DRT".

I don't know about Airsoft, but simunitions & paintball hurt enough that there's a significant motivation to not get "shot".

Absolutely! Airsoft is the most "gentle" of the bunch, but you still know you've been hit.

and these are from people who dont rapid fire.

I've seen a number of people who were not shooting rapid fire shoot up ceilings, target holders, counter tops, walls, etc. It isnt always someone quick on the trigger.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Quote:
Their range, their rules.

Can't put it any simpler then this. Only other option is to find someplace else to shoot. Or you can be grateful that you have a place to shoot and obide by the rules.

One other alternative: open your own range and do whatever you wish.

 

[darkgael]

misunderstood

AK103K:

On the contrary, you usually do, and thats how you learn.

I believe that I have misunderstood your scenarios. You are talking about practice with non-firearms, airsoft and paintball guns, is that the case? I thought that you were referring to hand to hand with real firearms.
Do you find that paintball, etc. act sufficiently like a firearm? My sons used to play with them but I never did.
Pete

 

[AK103K]

You are talking about practice with non-firearms, airsoft and paintball guns, is that the case? I thought that you were referring to hand to hand with real firearms.

Yup, in this case, airsoft. Hand to hand is also still often involved.

Do you find that paintball, etc. act sufficiently like a firearm?

The airsoft gas guns do. They are the same size and weight, and work the same (for the most part, the noise is less) as your normal carry gun. They also fit in your normal holster and the mags in the carriers. The "hit" isnt as painful as a close range paintball hit, but you know you were hit.

Paintball is less realistic and practical. Simunitions would be the closest thing, but are a lot more expensive and not readily available.

 

[stevieboy]

At my range it's pretty much anything goes. And, you see everything there. One day I had my target set at 15 yards. The guy in the lane next to me had a rental Glock and began blasting away at a silhouette target that he'd set at about 5 yards. He blew off an entire magazine in about 8 - 9 seconds, and nearly half the rounds penetrated my target. Some actually hit the 10 ring. I pulled the target in, took it off the hanger, walked over to him, handed him the target, and said "nice shooting." He stared at me, totally without comprehension.

I've seen people shoot target hangers, guide wires, the walls, the floor, and the ceiling. I've seen people shooting while holding their rental Glocks sideways. Fortunately, I haven't seen people shoot each other . . . . yet. I have nothing against people practicing rapid fire. I tend to shoot slowly and for accuracy but I realize that there are some shooters who want to perfect their defensive skills. And, some of the people I've observed shooting rapid fire are obviously really good at it. So, I respect people who come to the range with the intent of polishing other skills other than hitting the 10 ring at 25 yards. My attitude, essentially, is live and let live.

But, I never cease to stand slack jawed with wonder at some of the nitwit behavior at my range. It's as if people can't understand the difference between the movie they saw the night before and the real thing.

 

[darkgael]

exactly

there are some shooters who want to perfect their defensive skills.

Exactly. What I continue to wonder about (I'm in the minority, I know) is why the association with "defensive skills" very frequently seems to be rapid fire.
I understand the "shoot until the threat stops" mindset; I understand that some (many?) shooters like the security of a hi-cap magazine.
The bottom line, though, is that it only takes ONE well placed shot to stop a threat. The drill that I think is most practical is the one where we make the most of the very first shot, in case the gun doesn't function on the second.

Pete

 

[AK103K]

Theres nothing at all wrong with one well placed shot, I think its what we are all really hoping for. But I just think its an "in a perfect world' thought. Even if it happens, they are still getting more than one round, or at least they are from me. The second, third, and so on, will already be on the way, and directly behind the first, and more likely than not, the effect of the first wont have even visibly registered on the target by the time the last arrives.

If you think you can hit that sweet spot with the first shot, and it will be instantly fatal, your a lot more of an optimist than I am. I'll take the high caps and shoot them to the ground. As I've heard around, "ammo is cheap (what can I say, its an old saying ), use it liberally".

The actual sweet spot by the way, is in a straight line directly behind the philtrum on your upper lip (that little depression we all seem to have) to the nerve bundle at the base of the skull, or any intersecting point from various angles around the head to that point. If your going to only be making one shot, I'd suggest you put it there, as it is "the switch". The old Paris Theodore "Quell System" might be of help, as it was designed for basically with just that purpose in mind. It does take a little getting used to though, and as with anything else, practice, practice, practice. If the target is going to be moving (very likely), even more practice, practice, practice. .