peacefulgary
New member
I love the .357 magnum.
But as a cop's sidearm it's just too heavy for the limited number of rounds it offers.
But as a cop's sidearm it's just too heavy for the limited number of rounds it offers.
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No more LE market for .357 Magnum?
- Thread starter Flakbait
- Start date
Heavy has nothing to do with it.
Give Mr. Clyde Frog a ceegar... That TRR8 was developed for the shield man in an ESS situation. ESS is kind of like swat... but with a whole lot more tools, and guns...
Emergency Service is part of SOD (special operations divison). They do swat type services, and swat services on steroids. They also perform rescues. In fact the bulk of their patrol work is rescues. They are all also qualified current paramedics. So they not only shoot you... they can give you a band-aid too.
Spuk!
Give Mr. Clyde Frog a ceegar... That TRR8 was developed for the shield man in an ESS situation. ESS is kind of like swat... but with a whole lot more tools, and guns...
Emergency Service is part of SOD (special operations divison). They do swat type services, and swat services on steroids. They also perform rescues. In fact the bulk of their patrol work is rescues. They are all also qualified current paramedics. So they not only shoot you... they can give you a band-aid too.
Spuk!
I think that anyone who wants to carry .357 Magnum in a little backup snubbie is an absolute masochist. 38+P in small grain loads is still a handful.
I came to the revolver world after trying semiauto pistols and agree that revolvers take more skill than to hit because of the double action triggers. Simply yanking on the revolver trigger leads to nowwhere but a lot of noise. That being said, having to aim each and every double action shot leads to pretty good hit accuracy if you practice a bit. Unfortunately, most folks including LE probably don't hit the range more than a few times a year at best.
I came to the revolver world after trying semiauto pistols and agree that revolvers take more skill than to hit because of the double action triggers. Simply yanking on the revolver trigger leads to nowwhere but a lot of noise. That being said, having to aim each and every double action shot leads to pretty good hit accuracy if you practice a bit. Unfortunately, most folks including LE probably don't hit the range more than a few times a year at best.
Rampant_Colt
New member
I just received the Cabela's Fall hunting catalog and they now have new .357
Magnum defensive loads like W-W 125gr PDX1 Bonded, Hornady 125gr Critical Defense, Speer 158gr Gold Dot (not so new..) and Federal 140gr Vital-Shok listed. Just 'cause the cops aren't using revolvers anymore doesn't mean they're outdated or you're undergunned.
These new loads (including R-P Golden Sabres) feature consistant terminal performance & deep penetration, sealed primers & cases and flash-suppressed cannister-grade powders unavailable to the general public.
Magnum defensive loads like W-W 125gr PDX1 Bonded, Hornady 125gr Critical Defense, Speer 158gr Gold Dot (not so new..) and Federal 140gr Vital-Shok listed. Just 'cause the cops aren't using revolvers anymore doesn't mean they're outdated or you're undergunned.
These new loads (including R-P Golden Sabres) feature consistant terminal performance & deep penetration, sealed primers & cases and flash-suppressed cannister-grade powders unavailable to the general public.
Magnum defensive loads like W-W 125gr PDX1
The PDX1 loading is not listed under .357 Magnum in the caliber-selection tool on Winchester's website, but I did manage to find it here:
http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/News-Expands-For-Personal-Defense.aspx
Note that the link incorrectly lists both SKU numbers as .357 Magnum when S357SPBD is, in fact, the .357 Sig loading while the S357MPBD is the .357 Magnum loading.
Also, all the PDX1 ammo is listed correctly here:
http://winchesterproductdemos.winchester.com/PDX1%20Defender.html#/Performance
I note that this loading does not drive a 125gr bullet to its full velocity potential (Winchester's older 125gr JHP is advertised at 1450fps while the PDX1 is advertised at 1325) but I have no doubt that the loading is still capable of delivering excellent terminal performance.
Here is a pretty good read on "stopping-wounding-missing of differant calibers.
It looks like the 357 seems to hold its own until you get to shotguns and rifles.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WB_S_FCkrYKJSkwJwubQoOA9kweMBlZtq_gI9lBUoms/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1
You can take the article for what's its worth, but what I find is that it pretty much agrees with Fairbirn & Sykes book "Shooting to Live, With one hand gun", that was written in 1942.
It looks like the 357 seems to hold its own until you get to shotguns and rifles.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WB_S_FCkrYKJSkwJwubQoOA9kweMBlZtq_gI9lBUoms/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1
You can take the article for what's its worth, but what I find is that it pretty much agrees with Fairbirn & Sykes book "Shooting to Live, With one hand gun", that was written in 1942.
"hardworker" you really put your feet in your mouth (and chewed on them).
From his responses I'm sure "Kraigwy" has more REAL EXPERIENCE on this subject than you can dream about...
From my limited LE experience, I'd have to totally agree with "Kraigwy". I'm amazed at how poor the vast majority of police officers, especially those trained in the last 10+ years, can shoot.
Like "Kraigwy" I never felt under gunned with a .357 or a .45 ACP/10mm with just 6 to 9 rounds. If I thought I needed 17 rounds to do my job I'd go back to the range for more practice!
"...you can't expect a cop with zero combat experience to go Dirty Harry in the first encounter."
But I would expect FAR MORE during an initial qualification course. It's unbelievable how many can't pass such a simple course of fire. It is even more amazing that those with quite a few years on the streets shoot poorly.
Most of those who shoot poorly continue to shoot poorly year after year because they don't have to/are not forced to. They do the minimum required and continue to get minimum scores.
Add to that the fact that most qualify with light loads and rarely if ever shoot their carry loads and these scores and pass rates would be much lower.
"Give them paper and I bet they'll do fine."
Good thing you are betting with your mouth and not your money, you will have lost!
"aryfrosty" said, ..."and, NO, you can't miss all of your shots at 25 yards and still pass."
It depends on where you qualify. The qualification I have to do every year only requires a 70% and YES you can miss every shot 25 yards and still pass. Actually I have deliberately done this! My S&W 342 is such a miserable and painful little beast to shoot. I quit shooting after getting a 70% at 7 and 15 yards.
From his responses I'm sure "Kraigwy" has more REAL EXPERIENCE on this subject than you can dream about...
From my limited LE experience, I'd have to totally agree with "Kraigwy". I'm amazed at how poor the vast majority of police officers, especially those trained in the last 10+ years, can shoot.
Like "Kraigwy" I never felt under gunned with a .357 or a .45 ACP/10mm with just 6 to 9 rounds. If I thought I needed 17 rounds to do my job I'd go back to the range for more practice!
"...you can't expect a cop with zero combat experience to go Dirty Harry in the first encounter."
But I would expect FAR MORE during an initial qualification course. It's unbelievable how many can't pass such a simple course of fire. It is even more amazing that those with quite a few years on the streets shoot poorly.
Most of those who shoot poorly continue to shoot poorly year after year because they don't have to/are not forced to. They do the minimum required and continue to get minimum scores.
Add to that the fact that most qualify with light loads and rarely if ever shoot their carry loads and these scores and pass rates would be much lower.
"Give them paper and I bet they'll do fine."
Good thing you are betting with your mouth and not your money, you will have lost!
"aryfrosty" said, ..."and, NO, you can't miss all of your shots at 25 yards and still pass."
It depends on where you qualify. The qualification I have to do every year only requires a 70% and YES you can miss every shot 25 yards and still pass. Actually I have deliberately done this! My S&W 342 is such a miserable and painful little beast to shoot. I quit shooting after getting a 70% at 7 and 15 yards.
Deaf Smith
New member
First off guys, I think kraigwy is right on.
I've officiated LEO qualifications and yep, few can shoot and almost all can't draw fast. I've also observed security guards qualify here in Texas. It was worse... I saw the instructor have to load a guards simi-auto mag cause they got confused on how to load it!! Yes load bullets in the mag!
Massad Ayoob wrote not long ago about a LEO (Airforce Security Policeman) having to make a 173 yard shot with his M9 9mm.
So it does happen.
Deaf
I've officiated LEO qualifications and yep, few can shoot and almost all can't draw fast. I've also observed security guards qualify here in Texas. It was worse... I saw the instructor have to load a guards simi-auto mag cause they got confused on how to load it!! Yes load bullets in the mag!
Massad Ayoob wrote not long ago about a LEO (Airforce Security Policeman) having to make a 173 yard shot with his M9 9mm.
So it does happen.
Deaf
Here is a pretty good read on "stopping-wounding-missing of differant calibers.
It looks like the 357 seems to hold its own until you get to shotguns and rifles.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hl=en_US&pli=1
Good article. Thanks for posting it.
Although, we are all fairly well armed with anything .38special/9mm and larger, the 357 (sig or mag) and 12 gauge shotgun tandem seems like a pretty effective street combo for the law officer, past and present.
12 gauge shotgun tandem seems like a pretty effective street combo for the law officer
I didn't like the shotgun for police work. It's range is limited to 40 yards. Within 40 yards my revolver worked quite well. Beyond the range of the shotgun the revolver (357) is much better. If out of range of the revolver then I carried a counter sniper rifle).
In building searches shotguns always seemed to be in the way, you have flashlights, mirrors, doorknobs, windows, etc etc that require one hand, leaving only one for the firearm. Then if you end up with a suspect, the shotgun really is in the way. With a revolver, I can slip in the holster one handed if needed. NEVER USE A HOLSTER THAT REQUIRES TWO HANDS TO RE-HOLSTER.
This also requires confidence in your ability with the revolver.
That's just my opinion, other officers view shotguns differently.
viciouskitty
New member
I for one feel that police firearms skills are far from adequate on average. Is it because of switching to the new semi autos maybe somewhat but also lack of practice. i frequent a range with alot of LEO's and most will tell me that they don't practice much at all and that their departments don't give them any amo to practice.
Recently we had a charity shooting match for LEO's to raise money for the march of dimes. I was a range officer since I am not a LEO and was volunteering I observed over a hundred officers from various agencies such as DEA, Border Patrol, Local Police, District attorneys office etc. For the most part they shot horribly missing and killing hostages, fumbling reloads missing targets all together. The only good team was the Border patrol they ended up winning. After the match me and my friend shot the course to see how we would stack up, My friend would of had 2nd place but i'm not surprised he's very good. I would of got 8th overall which made them look pretty bad considering im a 21 year old kid who barely has been able to purchase a handgun.
Recently we had a charity shooting match for LEO's to raise money for the march of dimes. I was a range officer since I am not a LEO and was volunteering I observed over a hundred officers from various agencies such as DEA, Border Patrol, Local Police, District attorneys office etc. For the most part they shot horribly missing and killing hostages, fumbling reloads missing targets all together. The only good team was the Border patrol they ended up winning. After the match me and my friend shot the course to see how we would stack up, My friend would of had 2nd place but i'm not surprised he's very good. I would of got 8th overall which made them look pretty bad considering im a 21 year old kid who barely has been able to purchase a handgun.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Wasn't that a 73 yard shot, not 173 - unless there is another one?