No more LE market for .357 Magnum?

The better 9mm loads are within 100fps of what 357 mag revolvers are ACTUALLY getting from 4" barrels, sometimes much closer. Forget published ballistics. The only real market for revolvers now is long barreled big bores for hunting.

Old cops struggle with new guns when they have used something else their whole lives. I have several friends my age who cussed the new Glocks they were issued 15 years ago. (They had been previously able to carry anything they could qualify with). But the rookies who did not have to re-learn a new system started off outshooting the old pro's and now the old guys would fight you for the Glocks and wouldn't dream of going back.
 
The better 9mm loads are within 100fps of what 357 mag revolvers are ACTUALLY getting from 4" barrels, sometimes much closer. Forget published ballistics. The only real market for revolvers now is long barreled big bores for hunting.
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Double your velocity figure of 100fps and you're closer

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html

Also, the paper ballistics don't tell the whole story. Simply put, bullets can be used in .357 Magnums that will not work in a 9mm semi-auto because a revolver doesn't have to feed anything. The older 125gr .357 Magnum loadings are one of the few handgun loadings that can actually display useful fragmentation since they do so at deeper penetration depths. With the newer 125gr loadings such as Speer Gold Dots, you can get much deeper penetration than a 9mm is capable of.

However, where the .357 Magnum truly outshines the 9mm is when you start looking at the performance of heavy bullets. The .357 Magnum can achieve much higher velocities with 140gr+ bullets than 9mm is capable of (about 200-300fps faster with comparable loadings). Heavier bullets at higher velocities means both reliable expansion (iffy at best with older 147gr 9mm loadings) and deeper penetration (I've yet to see a 9mm JHP that can both reliably expand and penetrate much more than 15" in bare gelatin).
 
Jmr40, what loads are you talking about?

357 Magnum
147 GRN STHP will do an honest 1350 fps from a 4" bbl S&W model 19 and 1250 from a 1 7/8 bbl.

125 GRN JHP will do 1450 from a 4" bbl S&W model 19

9MM
147 GRN 9mm winchester LE only from a Beretta 92fs is 1017 from a 5" bbl
124 Speer +P from a Sig 226 is 1223.

Thats about as close as the data gets, you lose quite a bit of velocity with a 9mm. The case just does not have the volume to hold the powder. If you were talking about the 110 GRN 357 magnum load you are correct, for a 357 it is far from the best choice in that caliber.
 
Keyboard commandos/gun shop rangers, 6 shooters vs bullet hoses...

I, for one, take issue with the "armchair commando" remark. :(
I talk & post way more than I shoot but on my last state mandated re-qual(Glock 19 9x19mm) I was able to get a 228/240(95%).
Skill training & marksmanship help.
As for the six shooters vs 17rd "wonder-guns", I remember a older gun press item from 1992-1994 about 2 LE officers in south Florida who were involved in a line of duty firefight with a violent subject. As the uniformed officers chased the felon they each fired their sidearms. One LE officer fired 16rd from a duty pistol and was unable to stop the subject. The other older officer shot one .357magnum round from a 686 4" revolver & nailed the armed subject, ending the chase. :)

Clyde
ps; I too, have seen reports & media items of how US law enforcement officers miss with the first fired round about 75% of the time.
 
its no longer the revolver age, semi autos are now the medium of the "progressive" cops, and i have yet to see a tactical holster, or a holster period for a revovler that works with ALICE or MOLE webgear. so until then, and they re release dirty harry in theaters dont expect a comeback.
 
The high capacity mags ruin LEO's. My great uncle carried a revolver. He has said plenty of times that new LEO's are more worried about tactical equipment and sub machine guns. They rely on the 17 rounds in their gun. He said if all agencies returned to the 5-6 shot revolver then they would have to learn to make every shot count.

I guess the revolver vs high cap semi auto for LEO has its pros and cons. I'm not a LEO so my opinion means nothing. I will say, the .357 magnum is almost perfect for any kind of self defense or LEO encounters. IMO.

I have a couple LEO friends of friends and when I speak to them they all hate their duty weapons. They complain about accuracy but only shoot them before qualifying and during qualifying.

If my life was on the line everyday I would make 100% I hit my mark every trigger pull. Humm.... sounds like I've heard this before. Oh yeah. Concealed Carry class. Whoda thunk it? :D
 
at my local range, about 4 years ago they had a handgun shoot off (just for fun) of the Retired Police/Military vs the Active Police/Military vs Civilians . It was for charity If I remember correctly they where raising money for a K9 unit... but I may be mistaken on this point. (I think it was $10.00 to enter the contest) I remember the prize was a 1 month membership for the winning team and a 1 year member ship for the highest scorer. (I did no get any thing :p ) I think they averaged out the scores because the numbers on the teams where very unbalanced.

The retired group won by a large margin. The active group came in second but only just. They only slightly out shot the Civilians. I don't remember how it was scored but I know it was close enough that 1 shooter on the active police/military or the civilian team could have won it for the team.

now I know that this is not a great sample because the fact that the people are even doing this shows that they have an interest in hand guns in the first place but it was interesting to see.

Most of the retired group shot revolvers but there where some that shot 1911s and I even saw some Glocks. The active military/police group all shot semiautomatics (at least that I saw). The Civilian group was a mixed lot, I was in this group and shot a S&W 6 shooter in 357 magnum.

Over all it was very fun and every one went home smiling.
 
Too narrow...

Kriagwy...
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The agency I retired from in Georgia required bi-annual re-quals on the Georgia Double Action Course, (GDAC). If an officer couldn't qualify with a passing grade he woulodn't be carrying a firearm again until he COULD qualify. Highest possible on the GDAC is 99% and a majority of the Officers shot that every time. I understand you are probably basing your opinion on large departments but all agencies aren't "large". From the agencies in our area I could probably count maybe 5 or 6 Officers who didn't qualify on the first round. But there were several Officers who would work with them until they did qualify before they left our range on the same day.Your attitude reminds me of the night when a "large agency" Chief spoke to us about pursuits. He told us, with a straight face, that we had no excuse to ever chase any car. "Use your radio and the next sector car". I was Assistant Chief of our agency and I took him aside after his remarks and told him that, to our Officers, the next sector car might be a county car 15 miles away or a State Trooper 30-40 miles away. He couldn't grasp that idea.
 
hardworker... Kraigwy is a sniper qualified, retired Army weapons instructor and former LEO. Of all people you could imply might be "armchair commandos..." Seriously...

However, I do have to take some exception to a couple of Kraigwy's comments.

2.3 rounds is an average per bad guy for a stop. The average LEO should be good with a revolver if he has only one, or possibly two bad guys.

Given the number of agencies that send officers out solo, odds are the officer will be alone during an initial stop, even if back-up is on the way. While the officer might wait to approach the vehicle until back-up arrives, that does not mean the vehicle's occupants won't decide to force the issue prior to arrival of back-up.

So, an officer who can shoot, might still want more than 6 rounds immediately available, especially if he is alone, and there are multiple BG's.
 
I'm surprised by the comment about revolvers being limited to hunting these days. I carry a J frame frequently, as do several friends.
 
Bianchi-Safariland UM84R holsters, 4" K frame revolvers....

If you want or need a sturdy/long lasting milspec rig for a 4" barrel wheel gun, check into the highly rated Bianchi UM84R line.
These holsters are based on the same design specs & material as the M12 holsters and UM92II in use for the Beretta M9 service pistol(9mmNATO).
I've owned a UM84R since around 2006. The Bianchi 2011 catalog states the rig will fit MOLLE & milspec adapters too. ;)

CF
www.Bianchi-intl.com
 
Everyone complains cops can't shoot. I think that's easy for an armchair commando to say.
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It's also easy for a range officer at a public range to say.

The only real market for revolvers now is long barreled big bores for hunting.
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This comes as an utter surprise to me, as the 4" barrel Ruger GP-100 is one of the best-selling home-defense guns in my area. I can't think of a single person I shoot with who doesn't have at least one rimfire revolver. The most popular backup gun out there is the lightweight snubnose revolver.

Just because some people don't like them, or haven't taken the time to acclimate to them, doesn't mean they're obsolete by any means.

It's also worth mentioning that, while many in law enforcement carried revolvers chambered in .357 Magnum, many departments only allowed the use of .38 Specials.
 
I wonder how much of LEO weapon selection has to do with public perception now? (law abiding citizens, thugs and gangstas alike) It seems like that in many ways the perception of the revolver has suffered more from the Barney Fife Hollywood/TV stereotype than it has benefited from Harry Callahan. I'd think that having the black Glock holstered meets the typical civilian's hollywood-fueled expectations far more than the traditional service revolver.
 
Newton24b

Sir...

Like some other members here I also have extensive experience in policing. There is no revolver age. or an automatic age. There is just policing. A firearm is a tool. Used to fill a need.

99 9/10th's % of all police work is done without the use of a firearm. It would be more sensible to discuss the use of a blue pen as opposed to a black pen. Unlike the media portrayal of the mean streets there are no hordes of swarthy gang members terrorizing the public at large. There are no lurking monstrosities waiting to ambush officers when ever possible. There is only reality. Although life does immitate art... it is rare.

During my time in service I have walked some of the worse housing projects in the country alone. I have patrolled some of the worse and most violent neighborhoods ever. I worked street narcotics in all kinds of locations. I have served well over a thousand search warrants. I worked on anti crime teams looking for armed felons every day all the time. I worked in a stake out team ( they call it something different now) setting up, and capturing violent armed felons. I also worked as a detective investigation everything from grandma's missing ring to an uncountable number of homicides. I worked through the heroin epidemic, the cocain wars, the angel dust insanity, and the crack wars. I have lost far too many friends, co workers, and fellow officers to violence. I did that with a 6 and or a 5 shot revolver. I can think of only one cop SCOTT GODELL (rip) where if he had an auto pistol it may have made a difference.

Now I have no problem with autoloaders... other than they give a false sense of security. Having been trained by some of the best police instructors in the world. Taking their material from real world experiences, derived from studies and actual experimentation. I will stand by my training as will most people who took it. After exhauxtive testing and testing, then more tests they decided on several auto pistols. At the same time... They all agreed and stood up to the administrators... That the revolvers were still enough gun for any kind of police work. The NYPD still authorize the use of revolvers.

As budget constraints become a reality, and police administrators realize the spending party is over. I believe we will see departments require officers purchase their own equipment including firearms. If officers are given choice, I'd bet dollars to donuts that revolvers will become a lot more common.

Shot dead from a revolver is exactly the same as being shot dead from an auto. I'd like to add a line I heard on this very forum. One of the best I ever heard... As far as I know... everyone ever shot with a revolver is still dead.

Glenn D.
 
Where I currently work backup can be 30-40 minutes away on a good day. I carry an H&K 40, an M-4 and plenty of ammo. I carried a 357 Magnum revolver for 13 years and never felt outgunned. I have been carrying auto's for 17 years. The H&K is not as easy to shoot well like a Glock, or a 1911 but it is what I am issued/allowed to carry so I practice frequently.

I do not think that I would go back to a revolver even if I was allowed to. The 357 M offers little for LE over a 155 GRN 40 S&W at 1250 FPS. The auto carries twice the ammo, reloads are simpler ( yes, I am proficient with speedloaders ) and it is a lighter more compact package. I still own and shoot my revolvers I just don't use them as carry guns anymore.

While I am no fan of the 9mm with modern HP's it is effective. Ammo technology has come a long way since I was an Army MP with a 1911 and 230 ball.
 
No that wasn't what I'm saying. If what you said was true, you're qualified to give an opinion. That can't be said for the majority of people who say "cops can't shoot".
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Along with others who have commented on the armchair remark, it is not correct to say that one must have personal observational experience to comment on a topic. We have, what, three or four people chiming in after kraigwy to confirm that their experience bears his comment out?

Not to mention that this is a common theme, both from famed gun-writers with ample exposure to LEOs-who-are-also-shooters, instructors, and the stats-mongers. Isn't it fair at some point for the readers to start believing these fine folks and feel the same way?

aryfrosty said:

From the agencies in our area I could probably count maybe 5 or 6 Officers who didn't qualify on the first round.
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As always, the plural of anecdote is not data. Your experience appears to be a single data-point -- one locale where the local LEO culture is more effective in this area. Are you saying that your experience is normative for LEOs around the country? Other qualified individuals would seem to disagree. Personally, I wish there were more examples, such as yours, of strong shooting skills and attention to training. It would make me feel more comfortable in the various places I go (I travel a lot).

Also, when guys like kraigwy make general statements, there is definitely room for exceptions. Someone in this thread pointed out Cirillo, Jordan, Bryce, etc. Absolute phenoms in the LEO-firearm space. No contest -- but the general indications we get from various sources is that these are exceptional cases.
 
.357 mag

Being retired I can carry whatever I want to. Being prudent I only carry weapons/ammo I qualify with on the range. My primary right now is a Charter Arms 2" .44spl but I also carry a tuned M-19 with a 2.5" barrel. I try to look for and read up on different loads and then fire them before I carry them and I have settled on Cor-Bon's DPx .357 mag rounds. It has an all copper 125 gr. hollow point. There are beaucoup .357 loads still on the market. If I don't find what I need at the gunshop I can go online and find anything I want.
 
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