No more LE market for .357 Magnum?

Jepthai

I am not saying that my information concerning cops who can/can't shoot well is formative. I am saying the Kraig's information is not either. I have been shooting for 44 years and have been a range officer and instructor as well as an EOD Officer. I don't have the final answer for every aspect of this cat fight and don't plan to try to get it. I simply intend to try to point out that most others don't have it either. Comparing anyone to Cirillo and others with proven track records is disingenuous. That shouldn't be construed as criticism of Kraig. I don't know the gentleman. In fact, I never heard of him anywhere besides here. I have no doubt at all that he is as stated and I respect him for that.
 
The agency I retired from in Georgia required bi-annual re-quals on the Georgia Double Action Course, (GDAC). If an officer couldn't qualify with a passing grade he woulodn't be carrying a firearm again until he COULD qualify.
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I googeled GDAC and the fact that you think that passing it qualifies a parson as a good shot is exacticly, IMHO, what Kraig is talking about they only require 4 shots at 25 yards and give 4 seconds for each shot. In addition you can miss all the shots at 25 and still qualify. Again in my opinion that course is dumed down to get enough LE on the street.
Yes the LE presence of the 357 is much a thing of the past and it seams it took 50 yard qualificcations with it.
 
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Yes the LE presence of the 357 is much a thing of the past and it seams it took 50 yard qualificcations with it.
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Ahhh, 50 yard qualification. I whined and bitched like a little girl when they removed that standard from LE Qualification.

Everyone says you never need to shoot that far in LE unless you're a sniper or have a rifle.

Let me relay a scenario, and if anyone says it never happens has never been on the street.

Lets say you get a domestic dispute (they happen every now and then), if you have any brains at all you're not going to drive up in front of the house, you park a ways away (50 yards isn't unreasonable) and walk up to the house, listening for possible danger signs. Mr Badguy drunk and armed. He steps out on the porch with a gun, with or without one of his family members as a hostage. What do you do? Duck of course, you're gonna try to get behind your car, thats your "hide" or safety net, if you can't you're gonna find a tree or something else. You're gonna draw your revolver (or pistol) and cover Mr Badguy, if he starts shooting, you're gonna shoot back. You may be anywhere from 25 to 50 yards away. But you're OK with that, cause you department has you qualify and train at 15 yards.

See my point. I'm not talking civilian SD, I'm talking LE, patrolmen, street cops. One of the most common, and dangerous calls you'll get is domestic disturbances. In such as the above scenarios, qualifying at 3, 7, 15 or even 25 yards does not prepare you.

Sure now days you have SWAT call outs, they can be there in maybe 15-20 minutes at best. 20 minutes is a long time to wait when someone is shooting at you or threatening a hostage.

It helps now that a lot of departments are allowing officers to carry patrol rifles, but what if you can't get to your car, lets say you have to hide behind a tree or neighbors car.

That's another reason I like the 357, I've found shooting at 50 yards it beats 38s, 9mms, 40 S&Ws and 45s. Those little suckers are pretty flat shooting for a revolver.
 
OK

I am very happy for you thinking that the GDAC is "dumbed down", (not 'dumed' down as you wrote). I have to believe that your affinity for Google has bewildered you into thinking you know what you're talking about. It is a real world scenario and, NO, you can't miss all of your shots at 25 yards and still pass.
I firmly believe that your desire to have 50 yard pistol shots included in Police quals is probably rooted in your sniper training. Under many conditions a 50 yard pistol shot is to be strongly discouraged.
I am going to leave you guys to your opinions. Obviously you have consumed the Kool-Aid that a list of titles behind Kraig's name provides. Any first in officer who begins an exchange of pistol fire at 50 yards is misguided and, if he survives the encounter faces an encounter with his chief and commissioner that his career may or may not survive. Police Officers on the streets endure enough bad press without regressing into cowboy antics to show how big their balls are. If you are 50 yards that is your perimeter unless and until your backup can get there to begin to control the situation.
The one gunfight I was in happened at about 10 yards and was settled in 5 rounds from a Colt .357.
Grates on me that some of you guys list your locastion as Northern Ga or NW Georgia. The GDAC was never optional and was never a "suggestion". It was mandatory...but I am certain those guys who created it didn't have the benefit of your expertise or they would would have stayed with the NRA course. By the way our agencies Officers were given the chance to fire NRA and all tok it. Many finishing as I did as NRA Police Expert.
 
I am very happy for you thinking that the GDAC is "dumbed down", (not 'dumed' down as you wrote). I have to believe that your affinity for Google has bewildered you into thinking you know what you're talking about. It is a real world scenario and, NO, you can't miss all of your shots at 25 yards and still pass.
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Sorry for the typo I'm on my blackberry and the screen's kinda small. But while we're at it there's 2 Os in took.
While I do like the ease that the internet makes getting info it's not where I learned elementary reading and math. Aaccording to the course of fire listed as GDAC there's 40 points avaliable at 25 yards you only need 240 out of 300 to pass. Last I checked 300-40=260 and 260 being greater thaan 240 is a passing score.
 
Any first in officer who begins an exchange of pistol fire at 50 yards is misguided and, if he survives the encounter faces an encounter with his chief and commissioner that his career may or may not survive.
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So, if an officer is pinned down at 50 yards or so, and someone opens fire, he's not suppose to engage the offending bandit??

Or worse, he's not allowed to engage to protect an hostage. I haven't said anything about Georgia yet, but if that's your departments policy, I don't think I'd work there.

50 yard shooting with a revolver has nothing to do with sniping, it has to do with being prepared for what may come. My contention is most officers ain't.

Most if not all police departments HAVE dumbed down their qualifications since the 60-70s.

I'll stand my my original comments, that most rank and file cops can't shoot worth a crap, I didn't say they couldn't qualify, I said they couldn't shoot, there is a huge difference.

Sadly to say, I don't see the situation improving, not with todays budget cuts and many states and cities going broke.

And you Mr aryfrosty are the first and only LE Firearms instructor I have ever head say the contrary. I haven't been to your town, so yours may be the exception.

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aryfrosty, to change the subject a bit, when did you go to Huntsville?? I went in Aug '83.
 
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With the newer 125gr loadings such as Speer Gold Dots, you can get much deeper penetration than a 9mm is capable of.
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How deep is it penetrating and is it really needed?

I can get about 16" out of my 147gr Winchester Ranger Bonded hollow points. That is through cloth and denim. I still get 14" after shooting through 1/4" plywood and it expanded to 9/16".

I would be interested in any published data on what I could expect from a .357 in the same situations.
 
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As always, the plural of anecdote is not data. Your experience appears to be a single data-point -- one locale where the local LEO culture is more effective in this area.
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The department I work for has 40 officers. Only two of them fail to qualify on the first try. That is a retired NYPD cop and a small handed lady. She has actually started doing better since they allowed her to switch from a Sig.

Our department also mandates a higher score than the state. Less than 10 of them score below a 95%. All of them score a 93% or better. So, I think claiming LEOs can't shoot is a little too broad of a statement.

Of course our department offers each officer 8 hours a week at the range and 200 rounds for practice. Our guys get 800 rounds a month if they are willing to show up at the range. Most of them go at least once a month. So, they get 200 rounds.
 
So, I think claiming LEOs can't shoot is a little too broad of a statement.
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If the statement is this: all LEOs can't shoot, then I agree that it's too broad a statement. However, I don't think that I, kraigwy, or anyone else here is saying this. The contention is something more like this: the average LEO can't shoot. It's so easy in online discussion to assume someone's arguing more than they truly are, or to see vitriol between the lines and propel a healthy discussion into an argument. Maybe I should attach a disclaimer to my posts saying that I'm not arguing, just discussing ;) .

No one's saying that good-shooting cops don't exist. No one's saying that there aren't "lots" of good-shooting cops. I believe the discussion is about how there are more bad-shooting cops than there are good-shooting cops. Clydefrog said something about there being half a million LEOs in the country. If 200,000 of them shoot great, but 300,000 shoot like crap, then people making this argument are correct.

Note: I'm not saying that 300,000 cops shoot like crap. I personally don't know, though I certainly read a lot of believable accounts from appropriate industry pundits that would lead me not to be surprised if someone said such. I'm just pointing out that responding to a generalization with anecdotal data doesn't really get the discussion anywhere. It's not valid
 
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Make every shot count
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Thats all fine and good if you have a clean shot at the bad guy.

I have no police training whatsoever, but I do have military training. When I think of a firefight, I think fire and maneuver; discharge 100 shots of suppressing fire so someone can maneuver into position for those 2 or 3 kill shots.

I love wheelguns, but if I have to lay down some suppressing fire I would much rather have a high capacity auto than a 6 shot revolver. Now I throw that idea out there fully admitting that I have no idea whatsoever how applicable the idea of suppressing fire is to law enforcement.
 
I think fire and maneuver; discharge 100 shots of suppressing fire so someone can maneuver into position for those 2 or 3 kill shots.
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This is one place that LE and Military should differ. I'd rather not have 100s of rounds of suppressive fire discharged in my neighborhood. :eek:
 
There is a lack of market in the LE world for "LE" .357 so its not surprising certain lines of ammo have been dropped. The good news is that you can always find good .357 duty/defense loads, like the Corbon DPX stuff and others. The .357 will survive for many more years to come.

As an LEO, I consider myself one of the lucky ones who gets to choose what I carry, instead of being force fed a handgun that someone thought was the best. Even better, my department never disallowed revolvers, long after almost no one carried them anymore. In fact, when I started carrying an 8 shot 627 some four years ago, I was the first officer to go back to one at the time. Several others now carry. I feel like I have the best sytem I can come up with: 8 shot with Herrett grips, five inch barrel, XSS night site, Hearthco moon clips, 125 DPX (good penetration, low flash, lighter recoil). Even though I own, shoot, and love semi-autos, I choose to carry a .357 revolver for duty purposes. I have no plans to change until mandated. I accept that I am the exception and think nothing of it. I am proud that my department gives us the choice.
 
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With the newer 125gr loadings such as Speer Gold Dots, you can get much deeper penetration than a 9mm is capable of.

How deep is it penetrating and is it really needed?

I can get about 16" out of my 147gr Winchester Ranger Bonded hollow points. That is through cloth and denim. I still get 14" after shooting through 1/4" plywood and it expanded to 9/16".

I would be interested in any published data on what I could expect from a .357 in the same situations.
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In Brassfetcher's testing (you have to click the "Old Website" link on their website), the 125gr Speer Gold Dot .357 Magnum loading from a 4" barrel completely penetrated a bare 16" gelatin block and expanded to .651". Bare gelatin often gives shallower penetration than clothed gelatin because there is no clothing to clog the HP cavity and threby retard expansion. Per the data on Winchester's website, your 147gr Ranger Bonded penetrates 14.7" in bare gelatin and the 147gr Ranger T-Series penetrates 13.9" in bare gel. All of Winchester's data is, of course, from a 4" barrel.

Over at firearmstactical.com, you can also find performance data for several older .357 Magnum loadings. Even in the older loads, the .357 Magnum can offer significantly deeper penetration if heavier bullets are used. For example, the Winchester 145gr Silvertip was able to penetrate 15.8" in bare gel while still expanding and the Federal 158gr JHP (this is the older Hi-Shok JHP) was able to manage 16.5" with expansion. The Federal 158gr Hydra-Shok penetrated 24.7" in bare gel but did not expand much, however it both expanded and penetrated 34.5" in clothed gel. Of these three loadings, the Winchester Silvertip and the Federal Hydra-Shok were both tested from 3" barrels while the Federal Hi-Shok was tested from a 4" barrel.

I like the extra penetration that the .357 Magnum can offer because I've come to the conclusion that someone likely to attack me will probably be a very large individual. The way I see it, violent criminals usually try to pick victims that are smaller and/or weaker than themselves and because I'm a large individual myself (6'4" and 300+lbs) the only people who are likely to think they can easily attack me will probably be about my size or larger. The way I see it, a larger-than-normal individual may likely require deeper-than-normal penetration.
 
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I realize that this thread is about the demise of the .357 for law enforcement. However, after reading posts about the lack of proficiency of cops to shoot, I have to add my two cents. Like all generalities this one is often true and as often not true.

There are those in every profession, law enforcement included, who learn barely enough and do just enough to get by. Conversely, there are others apart who dedicate themselves to learn as much as they can and then use their knowledge to improve and hone their skills. These later people are successful at what they do and usually have great longevity in their profession.

I regularly shoot with a retired policeman, my friend Fred. He is not only fully versed in firearms but is an outstandingly accurate shooter. He does not tolerate foolishness handling firearms but is more then willing to impart assistance to those who want to become safer and better handlers of guns.

My friend Fred is much like certain shipmates I had in the navy and still fewer business associates I had in my civilian career. Yet, each of these men was made of the same stuff. They were willing to listen and learn, never quit learning and dedicated themselves to excellence.

The great difference separating my business associates from my LEO friends is the lethality that comes with the trade. I have observed some serving officers at the range who really need a slap on the behind to wake them up to the reality of their profession. Thank God, they are in the minority. I have seen far more officers at the range putting in quality time attempting to correct their shooting deficiencies and improve their handling and shooting of weapons.

“Cops can’t shoot” may or may not be a generalization. But, I take heart in knowing at least one who can shoot better then me and one I admire, respect and sincerely like.
 
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My own observations, and friends who have conducted qualification firing of LEOs is that the average LEO is not particularly proficient with his handgun, and almost never practices except just before the qualification. He doesn't particularly like handguns, but considers them a necessary tool and does not like to shoot them.

However, I also know a few that are extremely well qualified and proficient. I suspect that the practicing CHL holders on these forums are better shots than the average LEO.

Jerry
 
"I am going to leave you guys to your opinions. Obviously you have consumed the Kool-Aid that a list of titles behind Kraig's name provides. Any first in officer who begins an exchange of pistol fire at 50 yards is misguided and, if he survives the encounter faces an encounter with his chief and commissioner that his career may or may not survive. Police Officers on the streets endure enough bad press without regressing into cowboy antics to show how big their balls are. If you are 50 yards that is your perimeter unless and until your backup can get there to begin to control the situation."

Well, I have never met Kraig, but I have been with the US Border Patrol for over 20 years and up until 1996 when we went auto's we qualified at 50 yards. The BP routinely get in shootouts at 50 yards and beyond, moreso than any other agency.

"I have no police training whatsoever, but I do have military training. When I think of a firefight, I think fire and maneuver; discharge 100 shots of suppressing fire so someone can maneuver into position for those 2 or 3 kill shots."

Sorry dude a handgun is not an assault rifle and LE is not the military where you can indiscriminately lob rounds all over the place.
 
Thanks for the info Webley. I never really looked in to the .357magnum. I shot it a few times and just didn't care for the recoil. It is interesting to see the lab numbers. I see why a person would want that particular caliber. It has a good track record and has impressive lab numbers.


The closest thing I've seen to those numbers in a 9mm is the Federal HST. It doesn't penetrate as deeply. The 147gr does have similar expansion though.

I think the big deterent to LEO use is the recoil and size. Departments are hiring smaller framed officers and women at higher rates. Both can handle the .357 but it would take longer to get them up to speed. Plus going with the same thing as the FBI makes it look like the department is keeping up with the latest "proven methods."

The .357mag market is disappearing. However, Winchester still makes a Ranger Bonded .38spl+p and Federal still makes the Hydra Shok and Hi-Shok (now LE Classic) bullets. Speer has been pushing the technology of snub nose .38spl rounds in the last decade. I think the .357 has given way to the .38spl BUG.

Just my opinion from limitted experience. The department where I work doesn't allow a BUG.
 
Smith and Wesson; M&P .357magnum 8 shot: ESU-NYPD....

To my limited knowledge, the elite ESU(emergency services unit) of the NYPD uses a S&W military and police 8rd .357magnum revolver for special call-outs.
They sometimes use it with ballistic shields. I think the ESU uses a Crimsontrace lasergrip or a 1913 white light too depending on the conflict.
I'm not sure if the ESU uses .357magnum or regular NYPD type .38spl +P loads. The Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP +P was in use for the NYPD J frames & Ruger SP101 revolvers.

ClydeFrog
 
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