No more LE market for .357 Magnum?

F

Flakbait

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Federal and Winchester no longer sell .357 Magnum ammunition in their latest premium ammunition aimed at law enforcement in their HST and Ranger lines, I think.

The .357 Magnum was the Cat's Meow of Law Enforcement ammunition 20+ years ago but I guess nearly everyone has moved on to semi-auto pistols. When the current hollowpoint ammunition of the day was prone to failure, the high velocity of the .357 Magnum insured reliable expansion leading to better outcomes in stopping bad guys. I guess there is not enough interest in revolver ammo to pass along the latest and greatest ammunition technology to revolver ammunition.

Interestingly, the TX Department of Corrections (i.e. TX state prison system which is a pretty big institution) still issues revolvers to this prison guards for use in guarding prisoners needing transportation outside of prison (i.e. hospitals). However, I doubt most prison guards even fire their weapons even once a year.
 
.357 magnum hasn't been a major player in the LE market in almost 3 decades.

gold dot still makes LE duty ammo for it though.
 
Weapons aren't issued on a department wide basis. Lots of times you'll see the road deputies get the newest wizbang semi-auto. My father is a deputy but he's a jailer so he still gets a Model 66 smith.
 
357 magnums are becoming harder to get... they are still fairly common but there was a day when 357 magnums where as common or more common than 45acp or 9mm.

I still love the 357 magnum.
 
There's really been little demand for updated .357 Magnum loadings because the old ones still work very well. Dated loadings like the 145gr Winchester Silvertip, 125gr and 158gr Federal and Remington JHP's, and both 130gr and 158gr Federal Hydra-Shoks still perform admirably even when compared to modern JHP's in other calibers.
 
The .357 Magnum is available in Gold Dot, Golden Saber, DPX and Partition Gold (as well as the proven Silvertip and SJHP bullet designs, and Federal's Hydra-Shok) I don't feel the least bit undergunned using a .357 revolver loaded with W-W 145gr STHP or Federal 140gr Vital-Shok, and a couple of speed loaders. But yeah, the revolver is pretty much dead in the water as a law enforcement firearm.

It's too bad Federal/ATK and Winchester engineers can't tweak .355 dia Ranger-T and HST .357 Sig bullets for the forgotten and now overlooked .357 Magnum
 
5 of the 8 Deputy's i work with carry 357's still. One carries a 38. special and the other 2 carry a 1911. Actually the Sheriff still carries 2 Colt SAA's 90% of the time. But he has been working there sense the 60's:D
 
Big ups to the Copasurases...

:)

Massad Ayoob, the highly rated author, use of force expert & sworn LE officer put out a interesting item about this same topic.

I'm sure with nearly 500,000 active sworn LEOs in the US, more than a few still pack a .357magnum wheelgun. ;)
The .357magnum 125gr JHP was a long held standard and won't change anytime soon.
 
When the current hollowpoint ammunition of the day was prone to failure, the high velocity of the .357 Magnum insured reliable expansion leading to better outcomes in stopping bad guys.
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On the question: why issue officers with a 6 shot gun with more recoil is a 17 shot pistol with less recoil does the same trick?
 
357s don't need fancy space age bullets to work. Most Dept's used the 125 grn HP and they worked. Personally I liked the SWCs but I had different needs then most (moose), Ive addressed this before.

why issue officers with a 6 shot gun with more recoil is a 17 shot pistol with less recoil does the same trick?
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Yeah that's what cops need 11 extra bullets flying around innocent bystanders. IF they can't hit crap with 6 rounds, what makes you think they can hit something with the extra 11.

If you use a heavy pistol, such as an N frame, the recoil isn't that bad in a 357. If recoil is a problem and I agree that with some it is, the same bullet (125s or 158 SWCs) work dern near as good in a 38.

Problem is cops aren't what they use to be, look around. Everyone wants to look like swat, shaved heads, tacticool pants, thigh holsters, batman utility belts. Multi round semi pistols with more ammo then I carried as an infantryman in Vietnam.

If you teach cops to shoot, a 38 is all that's needed.

If I was to ever get back into LE, you can bet I'd go back to packing my Model 28. Regardless of the opening comments, I bet you could find some 357 ammo laying around in some store. 357s aren't going away any time soon.
 
Yeah that's what cops need 11 extra bullets flying around innocent bystanders. IF they can't hit crap with 6 rounds, what makes you think they can hit something with the extra 11.
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I think it is easier to learn them to shoot accurately with a 9mm semi than with a 357 revolver. DAO triggers tend to make inexperienced shooters (or maybe experienced shooters under stress?) jerk their gun.
 
Cops have wisely gone to semi autos. The larger capacity is a real advantage when gunfights ensue.
I also think that the recoil of a .357 revolver is so punishing that the vast majority of officers could not handle it. The 9 MM and .40 S&W can be used by essentially all.

{If you teach cops to shoot, a 38 is all that's needed.}
I am not aware of a single department that will agree with you. Can you list one that issues the .38 Spl? I also must say that I know several LEO instructors and SWAT team members, and none carries a .38 Spl. In the past cops just made do with what was available and what they had. I doubt that Jim Cirillo would start with a .38 these days. Guys like Cirillio, Jordan, and Jelly Bryce were the type who were one in many hundreds of thousands.

Jerry
 
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Yeah that's what cops need 11 extra bullets flying around innocent bystanders. IF they can't hit crap with 6 rounds, what makes you think they can hit something with the extra 11.

I think it is easier to learn them to shoot accurately with a 9mm semi than with a 357 revolver. DAO triggers tend to make inexperienced shooters (or maybe experienced shooters under stress?) jerk their gun.
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Really? I find myself shooting my DA revolvers better than my 9mm semi-auto. The longer, heavier trigger of the revolver forces me to slow down just enough to get my sights realigned before taking another shot while I find myself pulling the trigger sooner than I mean to with the shorter, lighter trigger of the semi-auto.

I really think all this debating about which platform is easier to shoot is pointless, it depends on what you're used to. People who start out with revolvers generally find them easier to shoot while people who start out with semi-autos generally find that platform easier to shoot.
 
I always see people saying that the recoil and blast of the 357 Magnum is so bad most people can't handle it, that is a training issue.

The latest " The 357 has not been a major player in law enforcement for 3 decades".

What? No, 3 decades ago was when the 9mm started being used by law enforcement. the 357 was still issued by federal agencies into the mid 1990's.

"Why issue a gun with 6 shots when one with 17 will do the same thing"

Sorry, a 9mm is not a 357 Magnum, only if you cherry pick loads can you make this statement even close to true.

But, no I do not think the 357 is a player any longer.
 
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I am not aware of a single department that will agree with you.
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Can you show me a single department that will spend the funds to teach their cops to shoot, or put out the requirment that they learn to shoot.

I just went through my yearly LEOSA qualification on the same course used by active LEOs in Oregon. I had to shoot 25 rounds at at ISPA target at 10 yards. I could have thrown 25 bullets at that target and qualified and I can't throw for crap.

As far as the 9mm Vs 38. To reach the the 125,000 power factor, a 125 grn 9mm has to go about 1000 fps, the 38 158 SWC has to go about 800 fps.

I have nothing against the 9mm, but its not any better as a defensive round then the 9mm no matter how you cook the books.

As far as the high cap magazines, google "average number of rounds fired in LE shootings, you'll find its 2.3. In every case I've read where multi rounds are fired, it just means multi misses. In LE you have to account for those rounds, some body could get hurt that isn't involve. Your job is to protect the public, not put them in danger.

I don't mind the recoil of 357s, but I do a lot of shooting so I'm use to it. But, unless you find your self in a postition where you spend more time putting down large animals then shooting bandits, the 38 will work. I wouldnt have any qualms about taking on bandits with a good SWC 38 load. I have more faith in them then JHPs, the below picture is a comparison between Black Hills 125 Grn +Ps and my 150 grn SWC, w/4.5 grns Unique, both fired out of my 642 at a wet phone book.

342%20%20bullets%20002.jpg
 
Everyone complains cops can't shoot. I think that's easy for an armchair commando to say. Give them paper and I bet they'll do fine. On the other hand, you can't expect a cop with zero combat experience to go Dirty Harry in the first encounter. You only pick up that experience after it's happened.
 
Everyone complains cops can't shoot. I think that's easy for an armchair commando to say.
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I say, for the most part, COPS CAN'T SHOOT, So I'm an "armchair commando" as you say, but I say cops can't shoot based on my experience where I've been a LE Firearms instructor since 1976. I still have my Valid LE Instructor Certification from the Alaska Police Standards Council as a LE Firearms/Sniper Instructor.

Cops can't shoot, because the majority don't care. They refues to put in the effort, their own time to improve themselves. Plus departments wont cut loose with the funds to improve the problems.

I'm not bashing cops, I'm stating facts that I'm sure can be varified by any LE Firearms instructor.

Along the same lines, I'll say the same thing about Soldiers for the same reasons. I have a pretty good back ground teaching soldiers to shoot also.
 
While I do feel it is better to have officer equipped with high capacity semi-auto pistols IN CASE they need the extra ammo, it is not a substitute for good marksmanship.
 
kraigwy said:
I say, for the most part, COPS CAN'T SHOOT, So I'm an "armchair commando" as you say
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Kraig is right. Most cops are at best, "okay shots". They do what it takes to qualify with the firearm. Most cops aren't self-defense experts, either. They do what it takes to qualify through the Monadnock system, or the PPCT system, or whatever system the agency is using at the time. We're not expert drivers either. We qualify with the cruiser on a bi-annual basis.

For myself, and bringing the topic back to the OP, the .357 magnum is still used by rural deputies all over the country. I carried one myself until the Sheriff issued us firearms, in our case, the MP45. When we got the new pistols, scores dropped. Those of us used to manipulating a double action revolver trigger found the MP trigger difficult to operate. At last qualification, I barely qualified, and by that I mean with the bare minimum score. This was in June of the year and since then I've been running a bare minimum of 100 rounds per week through the pistol and I'll continue to do so until I meet MY standards, which are admittedly tougher than the local POST standards. All this on my own time, with my own ammo. I'm a shooter and it aggravates me that I can't max the POST course. I'd routinely max it with the Model 66 and this new pistol is driving me crazy.

I noticed during the last practice session that I'm picking up the reset without having to think about it, so scores should improve quickly, now that I've put a case of ammo through the pistol learning to operate it.

But, Kraig is right. Most cops can't shoot. And the OP is mistaken, there are still lots of LE folks who rely on the .357 magnum. It's what I carry when I'm not forced to carry the issue weapon.
 
No that wasn't what I'm saying. If what you said was true, you're qualified to give an opinion. That can't be said for the majority of people who say "cops can't shoot".
 
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