No loaded guns allowed?

Mixed responses...

Having worked at two local gun shops, one with a range on the premises, I have witnessed pretty much every form of stupidity you can imagine. I have seen the range counter shot, a display case shot, the bullet also striking a gun, loaded guns pointed at staff as well as patrons, unsafe handling in general, you name it, I have probably seen it. I have even been known to tell more than one customer that if they pointed their gun at me one more time, I would take it as a threat and act accordingly.

Our rules became quite simple, if you intend to handle a firearm, it will be unloaded before entering the store. One violation will get you a stern warning. If you have to be told twice, you will be shown to the door, and asked not to return until such time as you can follow simple, kindergarten level instructions. If you can't do this, we prefer not to have you as a customer.

As another poster has already said, any time that a loaded gun is handled, the likelihood of a negligent discharge goes up. If it's loaded, KEEP IT HOLSTERED! No exceptions, no "what ifs", no "but I'm..."

I know all of you think you are safe. I know many of you have had good training, and practice safe firearms handling. I am not willing to bet my life, safety or job on that, particularly when I don't know you.

Just as a side note to those who are so ardently opposed to unloading before coming into a shop; Why do you feel the need to be armed in a gun shop anyway? Here is a bit of free advice. If you are ever armed while in a shop and the worst case scenario actually happens, active shooter, you would be well advised to keep your gun holstered and seek cover/concealment. I guarantee you that anyone on the customer side of the counter with a gun in hand, WILL BE considered a threat, and is VERY LIKELY to get shot! For those of you that have never been in a gun fight, it happens very fast, and is an incredibly confusing and dynamic situation. The people behind the counter will not care if you are a once a week regular, or a uniformed cop. GUN=BAD GUY when the bullets start flying. Be smart, get out of the lanes of fire and seek solid cover.

JW
 
If you are going to handle the gun that you have loaded for CC, yes, it should be unloaded before entering a shop or range. If your CC is going to stay concealed, it should not be an issue to keep it concealed.

Why carry a concealed weapon into a gunshop? Anti-gunners ask the same question, just in a broader spectrum.

Once again, any weapon that will be handled, yes, it should be unloaded. A weapon that will stay concealed, and not be handled at the range or shop, should not be of concern....I practice this.
 
Carry,

Those opposed to concealed carry also ask that question for a very different reason. I have no problem with people carrying a gun into a gun shop, or any other place for that matter. I do worry a great deal about how people will react if the worst happens though.

Drawing a gun during an active shooter situation in a sun shop would be much like doing the same thing in a police station. at best; a bad idea, at worst; an express ticket to a dirt nap. The odds of ever needing to use a gun in self defense are pretty slim. The odds that a mistake will be made by someone involved in a shooting are pretty high, and in gun shop, with multiple armed persons, the odds go up even more.

By all means, carry our gun into any place that allows it, but use your head. Getting shot is bad enough, I know this from experience, but I imagine it would be worse to be shot because you didn't think a situation through very well.

Add to this that when shooters are around other shooters, they love to talk about and even show others their guns. Go into nearly any shop, and you will see this pretty regularly. When you carry a gun, you open yourself to a great deal of responsibility. Not only for yourself, but for those around you as well. I have seen a total of four negligent discharges inside of gun shops. Thankfully, nobody was hurt in any of these, but in every case, property damage was done, and in one case, the bullet missed me by less than a foot, after going through a counter.

Even when signs are posted to unload outside if you need to handle your firearm, it is still a constant problem. People either don't see the sign, can't read, or think it only applies to "the other guy". And just in case you think that every incident is because of unsafe handling, one of the in shop discharges that I witnessed was due to a parts failure in the gun. Even when you do EVERYTHING right, Murphy can sneak up and bite you right in the ass.

JW
 
MY range has a CCWs encouraged here sign. They do have pretty strict rules about leaving the gun in the holster until its your turn at the range.

open carry is all so fine but you still have to follow the same rule of leaving the gun in the holster till its your turn at the range and the muzzle has to all ways be pointed down range. I have seen the range officer kick people out who break this rule.

Typically there is not any wait at all.
 
Flyboy; this should not be about one-offs by a guy who can't follow a rule that states "if you're going to handle it, it must be unloaded, if no, keep it holstered and concealed". This should be about the rights of the many, not the foolishness of the 1, or even the 1000.

Anti-gunners have a million reasons why bringing guns into their businesses is "unsafe" and should not be done....and now, we add to their powder horn with this.

Maybe the anti-gunners could team up with gun shop/range operators, as both know us CCers are unsafe and irresponsible, and have "witnessed every form of stupidity" from us....what are the Brady folks waiting for?
 
i'm all about 2nd amendment rights and cc, but everytime i go to my local range there are at least 2 people(or groups of people)that have never shot or are unfamiliar with firearms. i think its a good rule that any unholstered gun should have the breach open.last thing i want to do is get shot in the back while some new guy is behind me waiting for the range to go cold. i think that if your gun is in a case or holster however then it should not matter.
 
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How to Tell?

Unfortunately, those who go to firearms ranges and LGSs carrying loaded firearms who don't get it should have branded on their foreheads " I DON'T GET IT YET", then we would know who was who.
 
Carry,

I get the impression that you are only reading part of what I write and then having an emotional reaction rather than a well thought out response. I have never said that I am in favor of no loaded guns policies. Only that if you intend to handle it (holster fitting, show and tell, whatever) that it is completely acceptable to have a "clear before entering" policy.

I don't quite understand how you get from there to the idea that I favor limiting your rights. As far as rights go, you do no have the right to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise, into any private business or residence without the consent of the owner. They do indeed have the RIGHT to say that guns, loaded or unloaded, are not welcome. You may have the privilege to do so, but even this is contingent upon adherence to and complicity with certain prerequisites that vary from state to state. If it were a right, laws allowing for it or restricting it would not be written, but assumed.

As far as the anti crowd is concerned, I think they gain much more strength from every single incidence of gun owner carelessness/stupidity/accident than they ever will from a few shops with policies that disallow loaded firearms, or the handling of them inside their business. I would much rather that the pro 2A crowd do a good job of self-policing to prevent problems, instead of handing the pro control crowd headlines about another preventable incident by a firearm owner.

JW
 
If I know I'm going to a gun shop and plan to try out holsters, etc., I usually carry an empty mag and swap it in the car before I go in since most of the shops near me require empties in the store.

It's those rare times that I do this on the spur of the moment that causes me to dig out the zip lock bag I keep in the car for such times.
 
Flyboy, in Florida....we do have that right....the private property owner can't even post "no CC or carry" signs...

Maybe it's different in your state.
 
People tend to fight rules. conventional wisdom holds that if it doesn't make perfect sense in every circumstance, then the rule is obviously wrong and must be modified or overturned.

WRONG.

The way it is supposed to work is that rules are carefully written and simple, and made only when necessary to protect property and people from things that shouldn't happen.

ConThere is only ONE place in a shooting range where it is necessary to have a loaded gun. At the station, with the gun pointed at the target. Agreed?

ACCIDENTS ARE NEVER CAUSED BY UNLOADED GUNS. So, in interest in gun safety, NEVER allow loaded guns into an area that you want to remain safe, in this case, every inch of space that isn't a shooting station. In fact, make every person who comes through that front door CHECK AND EMPTY his gun, because if we don't deliberately force him to do so, how many people are going to walk through that door with a gun that is actually loaded? lots of them. and enough loaded guns eventually lead to accidents. If every fool in the county is allowed to walk into wally's sporting goods store and shooting range with loaded guns, you will eventually have ADs when emmet from down the street plops old betsy, his locked and loaded model 29 with the 1 pound trigger pull on the counter and asks for an hour of range time. it's a statistical fact, enough time passes, and it will happen.

So, why on earth should we change rules that prevent accidents just because there seems to be a contradiction? come on. No loaded guns means no loaded guns. Why should a rule be changed to accomodate a CCW holder? Instead of that, WHY SHOULDN'T THE CCW HOLDER JUST EMPTY HIS GUN, AND COMPLY WITH THE RULES?

We don't allow commercially licensed taxi drivers to drive at faster speeds than old ladies and teenagers, and we don't forbid idiots from writing letters to the editor, and we don't demand that only trained lifeguards get into the water at the beach, so why would we create rules that only allow an elite group of shooters to carry loaded weapons into places where they just don't belong?

it makes no sense at all.
 
I resent it when my liberties are limited because someone else can't control themselves.
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This is the ultimate point, the one place where we will never, ever be able to resolve this issue.

You don't own the range. you don't own my store. You don't own the hospital, church, police station, parking garage, city park, bar, etc, yet you insist that you have a "Right" to carry your weapon where the owner of that property, whether it is me, my brother or wife, my city, state or country, the corporation who owns the building, or even the pope, has said otherwise.

you don't! If a business or property owner sets rules, your liberties don't mean squat. Obey the rules, or GET OUT!!!!

People object if their liberties are infringed upon. There are too many imagined rights. People imagine that they have the "right" to smoke in a bar, swear in front of my children, drink as they drive behind me, carry a gun onto the plane and sit next to me, or so forth. The fact is, these are not rights. They are selfish demands that the rest of the world quit limiting your behaviors.
 
All very valid points, briandg.

I do respect the rules that the owners of business and properties set for their establishments, like I would want the rules of mine to be respected.

I don't have a problem with rules when they make sense, or can be backed up with a rationale.

One has to admit that the majority of laws are a result of a few people who can't police themselves... and that still irritates me.
 
The way I see it Guys, we are adults so we should know right from wrong. No matter how irrational or unconventional a rule is, if a privately owned establishment enforces it, then we are obligated to follow it should you go there. There should be no ifs, ands, or buts. The only real solution is don't go there.

Added : Remember, "I have the right to..." is and always will be a two-way street.
 
Flyboy, in Florida....we do have that right....the private property owner can't even post "no CC or carry" signs...

Maybe it's different in your state.
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Yes, they can post them. And they can deny you access. The state just doesn't have anything to charge you with. Except maybe armed trespass. Never heard of it happening, but there's no case law on it, so you don't want to be the first.

ConThere is only ONE place in a shooting range where it is necessary to have a loaded gun. At the station, with the gun pointed at the target. Agreed?
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90% of the people in Wal-mart would argue there is no place in Wal-mart or the parking lot where it's necessary to have a loaded gun.

In fact, make every person who comes through that front door CHECK AND EMPTY his gun, because if we don't deliberately force him to do so, how many people are going to walk through that door with a gun that is actually loaded? lots of them. and enough loaded guns eventually lead to accidents. If every fool in the county is allowed to walk into wally's sporting goods store and shooting range with loaded guns, you will eventually have ADs when emmet from down the street plops old betsy, his locked and loaded model 29 with the 1 pound trigger pull on the counter and asks for an hour of range time. it's a statistical fact, enough time passes, and it will happen.
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How is a holstered gun going to discharge?

You don't own the range. you don't own my store. You don't own the hospital, church, police station, parking garage, city park, bar, etc, yet you insist that you have a "Right" to carry your weapon where the owner of that property, whether it is me, my brother or wife, my city, state or country, the corporation who owns the building, or even the pope, has said otherwise.

you don't! If a business or property owner sets rules, your liberties don't mean squat. Obey the rules, or GET OUT!!!!
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I'm not saying that gun shop owners shouldn't have private property rights. I will say that they should carefully consider the way in which they choose to exercise their rights.

There is a measure of hypocrisy in profiting on laws that allow concealed carry in more and more states and in more and more venues, then prohibiting it in your own establishment. If you say people can't be trusted to carry because a loaded gun might come out of its holster and someone get shot- you're subscribing to the same philosophy that the anti-gunners use. All while making money on the fast growing concealed carry market.

"Loaded guns must be holstered or cased" is enough of a policy to keep things safe. It leaves room for property owners to be respectful of a right to carry, and leaves room for CCWers to respect your rights by keeping it holstered.

In fact, make every person who comes through that front door CHECK AND EMPTY his gun, because if we don't deliberately force him to do so, how many people are going to walk through that door with a gun that is actually loaded? lots of them. and enough loaded guns eventually lead to accidents. If every fool in the county is allowed to walk into wally's sporting goods store and shooting range with loaded guns, you will eventually have ADs when emmet from down the street plops old betsy, his locked and loaded model 29 with the 1 pound trigger pull on the counter and asks for an hour of range time. it's a statistical fact, enough time passes, and it will happen.
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How is a holstered gun going to discharge? IMO, it's safer for someone to leave the loaded gun in the holster than to pull it out and handle it every time he comes into the store.

ACCIDENTS ARE NEVER CAUSED BY UNLOADED GUNS.
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Accidents are never caused by guns, period. If you feel that your guns may cause accidents, I'll PM you my address. Send them to me. If you're worried loaded guns will start shooting people on their own, they'll probably start loading themselves on their own. ;)
 
The way I see it Guys, we are adults so we should know right from wrong. No matter how irrational or unconventional a rule is, if a privately owned establishment enforces it, then we are obligated to follow it should you go there. There should be no ifs, ands, or buts. The only real solution is don't go there.
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Oh, don't worry. If a business is against concealed carry, they can trust me not to bring my gun in there. Or my money for that matter. They have a right to prohibit it, and I have a right to buy stuff somewhere else.
 
wayneinFL said:
They have a right to prohibit it, and I have a right to buy stuff somewhere else.
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I absolutely agree. And this is the point...a "right to..." is and always will be a two-way street. I don't like the rule? As a adult, I am free to exercise my right and go down the street to the next store/range/shop...
 
Daryl: My gunshop has the sign, but they won't say anything to you if the gun is holstered on your body. carried in a case or otherwise in your hand, where it's intended to be handled while it's there (repairs, to sell, inspect, etc...), and they expect it to be unloaded.

But they don't have a range there, and none here do, so maybe it's different in that case. Can't comment there.
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The gunshops I usually go to, two different ones. One of them which has the best selection of items to buy, has a sign, regarding no loaded firearms.
However the owner told me that this does not apply to persons with a permit, but to those who are there to pawn their guns. I think he understood the reason I had not been buying from him was because of the sign. It was not a 30.06 sign which is required in Texas. Last time I was there he helped me get a holster and he knew I was carrying. Although he did not have a 30.06 sign up, I tried to respect the sign, by not buying there if I could get what I needed from the other gunshop.
 
When I was growing up and was over friends house I would go by there house rules because its there house. If I come up to a store that says "no firearms" and I am carrying concealed I don't go in its there rules. Gun shops no loaded guns I unload them It's there rules. If you have a CCW permit and think your above these rules that companies and home owners have in place in my mind you got issues.
 
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