No loaded guns allowed?

J

jaughtman

New member
I went to the range today, and of course, they have the "No Loaded Guns Allowed Inside" rule (until you get to a slot, of course). They even check your range bags. Which got me to thinking - gun stores and gun shows both enforce or advertise this policy. If you have a CC permit, shouldn't these two places ENCOURAGE or at least be the most OPEN or UNDERSTANDING to you carrying a loaded firearm? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

J
 
I agree, I mean if you have a concealed I feel as if they should let you, since we have gone through the steps to get one!
 
Not so much

It's not so much hypocritical as cognitively dissonant.

Gun shows do it for a reason, though. They don't need any bad publicity over someone accidentally discharging a round into a bystander or even just into the ceiling or floor. Either from a legitimate concealed carry piece that someone pulled out to try for fit in a holster or someone slipping a live round into a gun from someone's table (the reason all the guns have those plastic ties on them). It makes sense from a safety standpoint more so than a logical one.

In gun stores (or department stores either) it makes a lot less sense, but the same reasoning could be applied.

At a firing range, though, it makes almost no sense at all. In my opinion.

Insurance companies, however, have the ability to impose rules. (inflammatory editorial adjectives excised). Without insurance, your range would close.

Lost Sheep
 
in new york i never see any signs prohibiting loaded carry into gun stores or ranges. the first place i ever saw that was when i was in kentucky and went to Buds. I was surprised to say the least.
 
Our range doesn't prohibit loaded guns, but they have to be holstered and stay holstered until you're in your lane.
 
My range requires open actions, but they don't inspect my range bag.
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Yeah, that especially rankled me - this is a new range and the other two I normally shoot at don't do that....this might have been my first and only visit to this range.

J
 
Point taken

Tom Servo said:
Lost Sheep said:
It makes sense from a safety standpoint more so than a logical one.
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I'll play devil's advocate: safety concerns aren't logical?
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Thanks for noticing the nuance.

"More so" does not mean "to the exclusion of"

Human behavior is not always logical, so rules meant to enhance safety are not necessarily purely logical, either.

"Reasonable" is not precisely the same as "Logical".

I think I would want the safety rules at a gun show enjoying my attendance to be "Practical".

So much for the word game.

"It makes sense from a safety standpoint more so than a logical one."

"It" (prohibiting loaded guns except for the security personnel on duty and strapping down the actions of all guns in the building whether exhibitors' or attendees') does make sense from a safety standpoint. But it is not logical strictly. Where is the logic of guarding against unreasonably unlikely events (some idiot slipping a live round into an exhibitor's gun, walking away and waiting for another fool to accidentally discharge the round). Or another fool pulling his (loaded) carry piece to show it to an exhibitor who has a similar gun and one of the three (exhibitor, gun-owner or the eavesdropper next to the pair) picking up the loaded gun and making a fatal mistake.

Safety rules have to be more than logical. They have to anticipate the illogical.

Lost Sheep
 
I noticed that, too

jaughtman said:
My range requires open actions, but they don't inspect my range bag.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that especially rankled me - this is a new range and the other two I normally shoot at don't do that....this might have been my first and only visit to this range.
Click to expand...
I notice that too. But I have recently been subjected to commercial air travel and the TSA, so have a higher tolerance, I guess.

I would offer to let them observe me inspect my range bag. But that is as far as it would go.

Warning: Hyperbole ahead. Do they want to give me a pat-down, too? or cavity search?

I was recently prescribed a medical device. The airlines, by law, must let me carry it as hand-carried baggage and NOT count it against the bag limit. Also, while the TSA has the authority to inspect it, I have the right to require them to put on a fresh pair of gloves before they do. (This information from the device provider, I have not researched the law myself, yet.)

If it is a privately owned range, I have to obey their rules on their property, but I do not have to give them my patronage. If it is a membership club range, I, as a member can attempt to influence the executive board, committee or whoever makes the rules.

It would behoove me to make my rhetoric shorter and take my case to the rules-makers and get them to see the logic (or the reason, or at least the practicality).

Lost Sheep
 
There is a logical reason - these are the places you are most likely to be manipulating a firearm. You will be handling your firearm at a range, or you wouldn't be there, ergo, the less you handle and manipulate a loaded firearm in this location AWAY from the actual firing line, the less likely chance of a negligent discharge, thus keeping the insurance company happy. You may handle your CCW sidearm at a gun shop, to try holsters of spare magazines, or simply demonstrate a point to a store clerk, ergo more of a chance that it can be handled incorrectly and cause a negligent discharge, same as at a gun show.
You are FAR less likely to be handling or manipulating your sidearm at the grocery store, movie theater or dark alley unless in a self defense situation...what we're you doing in a dark alley?!?
THIS is the logic, and having seen holes blown through strange locations at two ranges I worked at AND the front counter of one by careless customers, I don't give the clerks grief about it. Even Sportsman's Warehouse has a sign encouraging CCW, UNLESS you are going to try a new holster, at which time you MUST leave, unload, and then return.
Hope that helps.
 
It's all about insurance.

They are a business where all they do is deal with firearms. That's it. The chance of accidents goes WAY up. They don't want to be liable.

It varies from establishment to establishment.

At my local RANGE, they do not check anything.
 
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Haven't noticed it in any LGS around here. With a range, or not. Neither Bass Pro Shops, or Cabela's have the no CCW signs posted. In fact, I think it's Cabela's that has a sign at the entrance about bringing a gun in for repair it must be unloaded, and checked by an employee at the door. On the bottom of the sign it says something like "except for licensed CCW".
 
My rules are if they don't allow my gun I don't do business there. I used to buy a lot of parts for my Chevelle at Summit racing. I got a chance to stop in at the store in Ohio. Now I can't carry in Ohio but that didn't matter when I saw the sign on the door no Firearms I stopped any business with them. I need to make it to Jegs and see if they have the same policy.
 
Given the number of gun shop commandos that have cooked one off at a gun show through an unloaded gun I am just as happy to not have everyone packing. For some reason people feel the need to either show off or try to handle weapons for the first time as experts at gun shows.
 
INSURANCE

Boils down to "INSURANCE"

Uncles friend works at a gun shop/range locally, you have to buy their ammo to shoot with, he told my uncle it's alot cheaper on insurance.


One range I go to allows machine guns/rapid firing and use your own ammo, just no LOADED guns while on the firing line.

Another range I go to the most, because its paid for all day not by the hour, it's you can bring your own ammo no rapid fire and loaded guns okay if they meet legal requirements. (holstered/cased etc..)
 
The range I go to is not staffed, you see a lot of dumb stuff there. I could type all night about the stuff I see there. I wouldn't mind going to a range that had rules and enforced them at all. I would feel a lot safer about bringing my kids there.
 
I try not to patronize businesses(especially gun related ones) that have a "no guns/no loaded guns" attitude. I am more than likely more skilled with firearms than the business person themselves so feel insulted at their assumption that I'm a goofus.
About 25 years ago I went to a trap range with a friend. We parked the vehicle and were carrying two cased shotguns toward the gun racks to leave them while visiting with several other shooters. Two or three club members jumped us like we were robbing the place and informed us no cased guns at the clubhouse. WTH????
It seems that a year prior, some idiot had shot a hole in the wall while dragging his loaded shotgun out of the case. Their answer was to treat everyone like that idiot. I was ready to leave right then but was a passenger so had to stay until the driver was ready. After seeing the inside of several muzzles during the Annie Oakley/Brother-in-Law round, he was ready also.
 
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