No-Knock Warrant/Wrong Address

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Very Good Dialog Going Here Folks

First, let me congratulate most here for having conducted a very informative and reasonable discourse on a very important issue. That we have those opposed - may I say strongly opposed - to certain police tactics and also have some well spoken, experienced LEOs participating is very encouraging and gratifying.

As I think I was the first to use the word 'Gestapo' in this thread, let me call to your attention the exact context in the following quote:

My stance against the use of NKW and SWAT was a visceral thing, unrelated to informative data, until I started reading this thread. That there are now 50,000 NKW's and God only knows how many 'announce and enter' warrants annually is an abysmal black eye on the criminal justice system. All of you in LE risk becoming like minions at the lower level of the Gestapo who followed the direction of their superiors and left the thinking and value judgments to others. (NOTE: I did not here nor do I ever called LEOs the Gestapo; I merely point out how slippery some slopes are.) This issue - the increased militarization of LE - will indeed make LEOs the enemies of law-abiding, decent citizens if it is not stopped on constitutional grounds.
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My use of the term was carefully considered and chosen because it conveys concisely all that can sometimes be wrong with law enforcement and with laws and those who make them. Again, NOTE THAT I WAS CAREFUL TO STATE THAT I WAS NOT CALLING OUR LEOs BY THAT NAME. The use was in the context of cautioning LEOs to continue to use their own judgment and common sense when doing their jobs instead of letting their zeal to perform well and please superiors supersede those considerations. I worked to get the attention I was after, but, apparently, some who read it were unable to read anything but a pejorative instead of the other carefully chosen words.
 
A Police Officer REASONABLY carrying out his duties and something untoward happens should be ajudicated. But, the penalty if any should be very slight

So the officer that kills an innocent man because of a typo gets sent home for a week without pay.

Meanwhile, the wife of the man who was killed now has to cope without her husband. His children have to grow up without a father.

I cant help but feel that the officer is getting away with manslaughter. Were a firefighter to die on an incident where I am IC, as a result of my orders, or negligence, I can be charged with his death, even if I am acting in good faith. My division's position is your training and experience prepare you to do your job. If you're unable to perform your duties, or fail at them, you will be held responsible, even criminally. I guess all agencies aren't so strict.

In all honesty, It seems to me that maybe you regard civillians as lesser beings that officers. Once again, I hope that I'm wrong.
 
Read between the lines Meek on all of those links, except the last one
OK, I read between the lines and it looks like white spaces to me. Maybe you have your screen color set differently? What do you see, yellow?

You asked for some evidence to justify my concern that one of the risks is that criminals can easily pose as police officers and execute their own no knock searches. The more I read of this, also reading the information that "longrifles Inc" posted about abusive no-knock cases, the more I think that the alarmists are right.
 
So the officer that kills an innocent man because of a typo gets sent home for a week without pay.

Meanwhile, the wife of the man who was killed now has to cope without her husband. His children have to grow up without a father.

I cant help but feel that the officer is getting away with manslaughter. Were a firefighter to die on an incident where I am IC, as a result of my orders, or negligence, I can be charged with his death, even if I am acting in good faith. My division's position is your training and experience prepare you to do your job. If you're unable to perform your duties, or fail at them, you will be held responsible, even criminally. I guess all agencies aren't so strict.

In all honesty, It seems to me that maybe you regard civillians as lesser beings that officers. Once again, I hope that I'm wrong.

You are.:D

WildthiswholethreadhasturnedintoascreechfestAlaska ™
 
Trying NOT to Make this a P!$$!ng Contest

First, let me refresh everyone's memory about the de-policing definition and why I criticized it as being a political statement by LEOs who chose to act in this manner and suggested that they weren't doing their jobs.

Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

De-policing is a "law enforcement strategy in which police avoid accusations of racial profiling by ignoring traffic violations and other petty crimes committed by members of visible minorities." 1 In a sense de-policing is the opposite of racial profiling.

De-policing represents a de-facto police strike, where the police withdraw an aspect of their crime prevention services. It is a practical police protest at perceived political interference in their day-to-day task of policing.

And a refresher on exactly what I said about it:
Quote:
This sounds to me like someone on the public payroll refusing to do his/her job. That would - or should - be grounds for firing said public employee. Certainly, if I had ever refused to do my job as a political statement (I spent my career in the private sector) I would have been fired.

It is not enough to operate in good faith and exercise bad judgment, or worse. When anyone is given such power and authority, he had better be competent to handle it or be prepared to suffer the consequences. If you are not prepared for that, I suggest you resign before you do further harm.

And the response:
No it is not refusing to do my job. My job is to enforce laws, make arrests and document criminal activity.

There is a huge difference between answering my radio calls and patrolling my beat and doing Police work.

De-Policing is not a political statement it is being minimally observant of the climate you operate in
How dare you insinuate I am not prepared for the job I have been doing for over twelve years spent mostly in areas you would be hesitant to frequent.

Before proceeding further, I must hasten to state that my choice of the term 'you' in the last sentence of the second quote above was a poor one for I did not intend to be critical of any specific individual, especially not about someone who's performance or personality I do not know. I should have said, "If ONE IS not prepared for that, I suggest HE resign before HE DOES further harm." I apologize for giving even unintended offense.

At the risk of being accused of pouring fuel on the fire, it seems to me that some professional detachment is in order. I've included the quotes so that all may refer to them in this one place. I don't believe that I've taken them out of context, but will welcome any suggestion and evidence to the contrary.

I also must state that I am not anti-LEO. LEOs are, unfortunately, necessary adjuncts to modern society. We, the citizens, create them, staff them, and give them tremendous legal and physical power. The very fact that they are given such power and authority is the very reason that we should be eternally vigilant and critical of their behavior and performance. The tendency to abuse privilege, power and authority is written throughout the history of mankind; so it is not unreasonable to exercise caution - even extreme caution - when we give it. Those are the reasons for my very stringent criticism of LEOs.

Now to the gist of the post.
This entire exchange illustrates why NKWs and even SWATs are dangerous. Here we have evidence of actual information being misunderstood - possibly intentionally, possibly accidentally. The first quotation above establishes the definition of what was later criticized, to wit, ". . . where the police withdraw an aspect of their crime prevention services. It is a practical police protest . . . " You can see in the third quote what I can only perceive as a redefinition and mis-characterization of the source statement and denial of criticism by substituting other argument not germane to the one presented. I must admit, however, that the statement, "There is a huge difference between answering my radio calls and patrolling my beat and doing Police work." baffles me. Also, I fail to see how a 'practical police protest' can be anything other than political. I need to be better informed here.

Now, I suspect that the response was triggered by what was considered a personal attack or insult caused by of my poor choice of words in the sentence as cited above (IOW it was my fault); but it points out how easily information and intent are so easily misunderstood and how personal feeling, anger, and adrenalin release intervene. And we don't have any stimulus here as would be present in serving a warrant.

Let's all step back and reassess what we've just observed then reflect on why there could possibly be some anti-LEO sentiment. Let's also reflect on why there could possibly be some resentment by LEOs of a critical public. But, most importantly, let's observe how easily things can be misconstrued and fall out of control beyond the intent of anyone.

I'm not smart enough to have contrived the scenario, as played out, to support my aversion to NKW and SWAT and the general militarization of LE.
 
WildthiswholethreadhasturnedintoascreechfestAlaska ™
If it had, it would have been locked down, Ken.

So far, this thread has been mild, compared to the ones that we were plagued with in the old L&P forum.

Yes, tempers have flared a bit. Yes, some have bashed all cops. Yes, some have told us citizens that we just don't understand. So?

Not everyone that has posted has been abusive. Even those that some think are, are actually pretty toned down, in comparison to what was paraded by in the past.

I understand the reasoning from both sides. The individuals that have been posting here, have made good their claims. Many jurisdictions make it extremely tough, if not impossible for those officers to serve NKW's. Likewise, others seem to call out SWAT at the drop of a hat.

There must be a middle ground somewhere, but by-and-large, that ideal is still being sought. Hopefully, these kinds of discussion can benefit both the citizen and law enforcement. That is only going to happen, if in the future, we all refrain from painting with the broad brush.

Since we are now at a point where the original OP's questions have been answered, and have drifted almost entirely off topic. Since we are also now talking in circles and some are even talking past each other, I'm closing this thread.

I would at this time, like to thank those involved in law enforcement, for maintaining the high road. I also thank those who put forth reasoned responses on the civilian side, for maintaining the purpose of this forum.

It is only by having honest discussion that we can see past any perceived differences and meet one another on common ground.
 
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