No-Knock Warrant/Wrong Address

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If you read my post and understood my message to be that I would turn into a navy seal when they broke down the door, my apologies. I fully realize I probably would not hit anything and likely would not get off a shot. Groggy eyes open or closed I am going for my gun and pointing it somewhere. More than enough to get me shot. I might squeeze off a few rounds also. Like many have said, I would rather be lucky than good, although I doubt anyone would look at a situation like that and claim anyone was lucky.

The fact of the matter is that when police get the wrong address or are just wrong in their search(both happen), and they enter a house with an armed civilian in many cases,(I would like to say most but who would have the data to back that up), the civilian has absolutely no idea what is going on when he/she first sees the police. That is the entire point of the warrant. How can you possibly blame them for picking up a gun and returning fire?
 
Don't misunderstand or read into my text. I'm not blaming or judging anyone for any particular action taken. I am only attempting to paint the reality of how small the percentages are of being successful at this sort of thing.
 
No-knock warrants being served at the wrong address and the homeowner ending up dead is common. There should never be another one issued. If the person has drugs they will be leaving the house eventually so it can be searched while it's empty or they can be apprehended as they leave. There is no reason to bust in the door at 3am other than a vulgar display of unnecessary force.

Interactive map showing botched raids by location. Clicking each balloon will give the details of that incident.
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/


http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v30n6/cpr30n6-2.html

http://lastfreevoice.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/dirty-cop-convicted-in-no-knock-warrant-death-of-92-year-old-woman/
 
I have been involved with quite a few search warrants and there is NO way you can mistake a SWAT team with a intruder.
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I have not been involved in any. So how would I know one way or the other.

These days they come in wearing masks to disguise themselves, in black clothing that is not readily identifiable as police, and often act and sound like thugs.

And yelling "police" does not make it so. A very, very common tactic of criminals is to claim to be police.

Since these days police go to such extreme lengths to avoid looking and acting like police, just how is one to know just who broke down one's door at zero dark 30.

This is at its very core not a legal problem. It is a political problem. Politicians need to grow a set and ban virtually all no knock raids. And they need to ban the practice of police pretending to be secret agents. Cops should be in readily identifiable uniforms at all times when they are engaging in official business.
 
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Three former Atlanta police officers are to be sentenced Monday for their roles in the shooting death of a 92-year-old woman during a botched drug raid in 2006, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office.

The officers -- Jason R. Smith, Gregg Junnier and Arthur B. Tesler -- pleaded guilty to federal charges of conspiracy to violate civil rights arising from the death of Kathryn Johnston at her home.

Johnston was killed November 21, 2006, as the defendants and other police officers executed a "no-knock" search warrant that was found to be based on false information that illegal drugs were in the home.

Police initially said that Kathryn Johnston fired at them with an old pistol, and they shot back in self-defense.

Junnier, Smith and Officer Cary Bond, who was not charged in the shooting, sustained gunshot wounds in the incident. Tesler was not wounded.

An Atlanta Police Department spokesman an informant named "Sam" said he had bought illegal drugs at Johnston's home, west of downtown Atlanta.

Their story began to fall apart after the informant said he had never been to the home.

Neighbors and relatives said the raid had to have been a mistake. Johnston lived alone and was so afraid of crime in the Atlanta neighborhood that she wouldn't let neighbors who delivered groceries for her come in, they said.

The sentencing hearing is scheduled for Monday at 10 a.m. before Chief U.S. District Judge Julie Carnes, attorney's office spokesman Patrick Crosby said in a statement. He said the hearing could last two days.

Not necessarily the wrong address but certainly a no knock warrant based on no evidence and whose execution cost an old lady her life.
 
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031706/met_21379779.shtml

There is a lot of fake cops around the link is to a killing done by one
below would be a very bad thing for any woman.



Man held in fake cop incident


Nassau County authorities arrested a Jacksonville man Thursday after a bizarre encounter during which a woman reported being stopped by a bogus cop.

The woman said she was driving on Florida 200 in Nassau County on April 1 when she was pulled over by someone in a white Ford Crown Victoria with a blue light on its dash.

When she stopped, a man dressed in a blue uniform checked her driver's license and insurance card and released her after a warning.

Dale Walter Ruhnau, 47, was charged with impersonating a police officer. Ruhnau, who is not a law enforcement officer, was being held Friday in the Nassau County jail.
 
This is at its very core not a legal problem. It is a political problem. Politicians need to grow a set and ban virtually all no knock raids. And they need to ban the practice of police pretending to be secret agents. Cops should be in readily identifiable uniforms at all times when they are engaging in official business.
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So you don't wasnt any UC Cops, or "Tact" cops, decoy cops. seems like you want to throw baby out with bathwater.

I try to see the other side of issues but sometimes I think people go a bridge too far in their animus to Law Enforcement.

Bad things happen in life, no Cop goes to work to hit 269 Main street instead of 296 Main street. I feel to assign bad intentions and maliciousness does not advance the argument.

If you have the misfortune of having a "No Knock Warrant" mistakenly served at your residence put your hands up and comply and Litigate.

If is isn't a Police raid do what you gotta do.

However, I think that there are so few screw ups with No knock raids to make most of the dicussion moot, I compare it to the antis fixation on the .50. It's provocative to have grandma baking cookies and the SWAT team doing an entry. It is provocative to have a .50 blow up a watermelon through a ballistic vest.

Both instances do not happen in the real world with any meaningful regularity
 
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Lets also look at the reality that sometimes police officers are involved in crime. I think it would not be a stretch to say that on more than one occasion actual police officers have illegally executed no knock raids on drug houses. Not often, and not something I am worried about, but someone dressed in black yelling police is not all that convincing when they just kicked down your door.
 
I've introduced the mental side of this now let’s look at the physical: We got people on this forum bitching about a little gas getting squirted in their eyes when they shoot their AR's and M-4's. What is your performance going to be like when your eyes are groggy and glued shut from the sand man? A person's blood pressure lowers during sleep, (ever wonder why you’re so cold in the morning? Your core temperature is lowest during sleep) what's going to happen when you jump up? You’re liable to pass out. I know for a fact I'd fail it. It'd take a solid six months to a year of this kind of training to be anything close to effective. Who really wants to volunteer to be woken up multiple times a night by explosions and loud voices for the next 180 days? By the end of it you'll be as flaky as a sexually abused house cat.
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While I agree that some people may be this way (and don't get me wrong, I'm a champion sleeper) but I had one experience that simulates this somewhat. My step-dad stepped out of the house one night to go on a death call (he's a funeral director/embalmer. And yes, I'm a bum, I still live at home:D) and forgot to disarm the alarm system. Of course it went off with it's seemingly 500 decibel speaker and I was up and moving within a second or so convinced we were being invaded. Would this happen every time? I don't know, but I'm inclined to think so. As I said in another thread, I'm paranoid by nature and anything unexpected like that puts me on high alert. Anyway, enjoying the responses, keep 'em coming! Thanks...
 
wagonman said:
However, I think that there are so few screw ups with No knock raids to make most of the dicussion moot, I compare it to the antis fixation on the .50. It's provocative to have grandma baking cookies and the SWAT team doing an entry. It is provocative to have a .50 blow up a watermelon through a ballistic vest.
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Please take a look at the Cato map link I posted earlier. You are very mistaken about the number of these things that are botched. There are a lot of them and the number is growing as the police forces become increasingly militarized. The first time the police broke down the door to the wrong house and an innocent person was killed the whole no-knock warrant idea should have been banned. There is no reason for them, ever. The process for getting them is also stupidly easy. It often consists of nothing more than claiming an anonymous source said there are drugs being delt at address xxxxx. That's it. I could call in your address to the police and they could have a no knock warrant issued within the hour and be at your house tonight. Scary thought isn't it?

They say no knocks are needed so drug suspects won't flush evidence. If the person is a dealer they are going to be leaving the house eventually to sell some. The house can be entered when they are gone or the person can be apprehended outside the house. The only reason police today use them is because they have an ever increasing military ideology and staking a place out and doing a low key arrest just doesn't give the same rush as breaking down a door at 3am and getting to shove your gun in someone's face. I'm not sure what you call a country that allows these type of police activities but it sure isn't the USA anymore and I want my country back.
 
I am sorry but at least in my jurisdiction it takes more than a CI to authorize a No Knock warrant. A CI gets you a target that needs to be watched. Everyone who goes in and out is IDed for a period of time. Licenses are run. Ownership is verified.

So it is not the fast and loose cowboy nonsense you and the Leftist Cato institute are purporting.

I am still troubled by the animus.

I also disagree with the notion of the Police becoming militarized. If SWAT was patrolling or answering Police calls on a regular basis you MIGHT have a point.

The Police are outgunned out there, I have been involved in several recoveries of AKs and ARs---I don't carry one. We also have had a rash of shootings with the 5.7 cartridge.

The reason for the 3am go time is there are not many bystanders milling about not for some rush. The rush is just a welcome byproduct.

The process for getting them is also stupidly easy. It often consists of nothing more than claiming an anonymous source said there are drugs being delt at address xxxxx. That's it. I could call in your address to the police and they could have a no knock warrant issued within the hour and be at your house tonight. Scary thought isn't it?
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It would be if it had a basis in reality
 
Banning no knock warrants is a bad idea. However they should not be, and from my understanding in most jurisdictions are not, easy to get.

There should certainly be a higher standard for approving such warrants (from the police to the judge) than regular search warrants.
 
This happened in Atlanta a couple of years ago, the indictment pretty well tells the story: Cops did a no-knock based on info supplied by a snitch, the cops claimed. The old lady fired at the door where the cops were trying to enter. The old lady missed, well trained cops shot each other up and killed the old lady, planted drugs at the scene, that they brought with them on the drug raid btw, after a search turned up nothing. Cops lied to investigators and tried to cover up their crime. What is not mentioned is that two of the cops were recently convicted of murder.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237787&highlight=drug+raid+Atlanta
 
I'm not sure what you call a country that allows these type of police activities but it sure isn't the USA anymore and I want my country back.
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I think I like that. In fact the more I read it the more I like it.

Well said and very true. What you are describing is not the America I knew as a kid and it's not what I stood on yellow footprints for.
 
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I'm not sure what you call a country that allows these type of police activities but it sure isn't the USA anymore and I want my country back.
I think I like that. In fact the more I read it the more I like it.

Well said and very true. What you are describing is not the America I knew as a kid and it's not what I stood on yellow footprints for.
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yeah well considering no knock warrants have been around have been around almost since warrants existed, you must have been standing in those yellow footprints in 1861:rolleyes:

WildthescreechinggetssoloudsometimesAlaska ™
 
I am sorry but at least in my jurisdiction it takes more than a CI to authorize a No Knock warrant. A CI gets you a target that needs to be watched. Everyone who goes in and out is IDed for a period of time. Licenses are run. Ownership is verified.

So it is not the fast and loose cowboy nonsense you and the Leftist Cato institute are purporting.
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Sounds like not all jurisdictions operate like yours.

Also, the Cato Institute is hardly "leftist." Attempting to pidgeonhole a source so that they can be more easily ignored is a time-honored tactic, but before you try to paint the Cato Institute as pushing some liberal agenda I recommend you peruse their website. In particular you should check out their materials on gun policy, economic policy, and environmental policy. They lean libertarian, not liberal. On many issues, they're seen as more conservative than most.

There should certainly be a higher standard for approving such warrants (from the police to the judge) than regular search warrants.
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In general, to some extent, there is. Many cases, like the one in Atlanta, involve officers falsifying information to get the warrant. The problem is that in many jurisdictions the only real qualification for getting a warrant certified for a no-knock (or the slightly less dangerous knock-and-announce) is that some form of easily destroyed evidence be involved (drugs, computer data, whatever).
 
I am very grateful for what police do every day. I get very upset everytime I hear of one being injured while performing their duties. That being said I don't believe it would be far fatched for a citizen to defend themselves in situations previously mentioned. Police are not forced to choose their profession and they are there to defend us citizens from the criminals. If they mistake the citizen they are supposed to be protecting for the criminal they are after it is their butt that should be held liable. If the citizen does a good job of defending themselves from what could be perceived as a home invader, good for them. It is a crappy situation either way. :barf:
 
Lets also look at the reality that sometimes police officers are involved in crime. I think it would not be a stretch to say that on more than one occasion actual police officers have illegally executed no knock raids on drug houses. Not often, and not something I am worried about, but someone dressed in black yelling police is not all that convincing when they just kicked down your door.
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FOXNEWS.COM HOME > U.S.
Robbery Ring Disguised as Drug Raids Nets Convictions for Former LA Cops

Wednesday, January 30, 2008


LOS ANGELES — Two former police officers were convicted in federal court Wednesday of participating in a robbery ring that disguised home invasions as drug raids.

William Ferguson, 35, a former Los Angeles policeman, and his 33-year-old brother, Joseph, a former Long Beach officer, were convicted of charges including conspiracy to deprive people of their rights under color of law and conspiracy to possess marijuana and cocaine.

William Ferguson was found guilty of 13 charges and acquitted of five counts. His brother was convicted of three counts. Jurors deadlocked on 18 other counts.

Defense attorneys said they would appeal. Prosecutors did not immediately say whether they would retry the brothers on the deadlocked charges. Sentencing was set for April.

Prosecutors said the ring conducted about 40 robberies from 1999 to 2001 in which members would steal cash and drugs, then sell them on the street.

Fifteen people, including the ring's suspected leader, former LAPD Officer Ruben Palomares, have pleaded guilty in the investigation. Palomares worked with William Ferguson in the LAPD's scandal-tinged Rampart Division until both were fired in 2003. He testified against the brothers at trial.
 
Of course, pnac, that just furthers WA's claim that the only people in any way likely to be the target of such crimes are those already involved in criminal activities (like dealers). I still think it's questionable whether policies that facilitate crimes are a great idea, whether the targets of those crimes are criminals or not.


I think the problem, and the reason getting any traction on this issue is so difficult, is that it's not really a clear-cut civil rights issue. Warrants are being issued, due process is observed, and while mistakes are made the intent is there to honor the rights of citizens.

The only real issue is public safety, and whether the gains made by issuing no-knock warrants outweigh what danger they pose to law-abiding citizens. Which, at the end of the day, isn't much...you can find a long list of instances of dead law-abiding citizens, but those are over the course of a couple decades. Much like school shootings, statistically these incidents don't happen.

I'd still argue that the upside isn't worth it, but I don't necessarily expect people to automatically accept that.
 
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