No-Knock Warrant/Wrong Address

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It obviously does matter. It is not a criminal act. One of the standards for a criminal act is to act intentionally. Going to an address that you reasonably believe is the correct address to serve a Warrant is not criminal.

The iinstances you are talking about are almost statistically zero. I go back to the 50 cal analogy


When Dominos attempts to deliver your pizza to the wrong house because the driver reasonably believed he had good information you get a free pizza.

When the police do it you end up with bullets in the face.

Statistics? You really mean that? Statistics. That works for you? Statistically its unlikely you'll go down in a ball of flames the next time you fly commercially. So should an airframe mechanic not do his jobs because statistically nothing will happen? Should the pilot have that one beer before boarding because statistically it'll be out of his system by the time the wheels leave the ground?

Mince your words and hide behind your little verbal barricades all you want. The policy/law/whatever has no place in our society and you are the public enemy in this case if you endorse it. If you need more proof read the post above mine. Redcoats or blue level 4 vest, it makes no difference. Your not the military and gestapo tactics are not tolerated here.
 
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The policy/law/whatever has no place in our society and you are the public enemy in this case if you endorse it.

Count me, as well as numerous professionals in Law Enforcement, as your public enemy then.:rolleyes:

WildtherhetoricisreallygettingsillynowAlaska ™
 
Mince your words and hide behind your little verbal barricades all you want. The policy/law/whatever has no place in our society and you are the public enemy in this case if you endorse it. If you need more proof read the post above mine. Redcoats or blue level 4 vest, it makes no difference. Your not the military and gestapo tactics are not tolerated here.
Is it because this is an election year that I keep seeing these sentiments? :rolleyes:

Yes, it's happened. I'm not a fan of the whole "no knock" warrant thing, and I know that there have been mistakes, some of which led to disastrous outcomes. The men who did that are not the rule, but the exception.

That does not mean, however, that all police officers who serve these warrants are thugs or potential thugs. That type of stereotyping is counterproductive and unbecoming.

IF the police were to execute such a warrant on my house through some mistake and IF I were (able) to harm the people entering, I'm sure an army of attorneys would be willing to take my case. Provided I wasn't dead or on a respirator, that is.

It's just that the chance of that happening is about the same as getting bumped on the noggin by a meteorite. Like a rogue meteor, the chances that I'll be able to react in time are very, very slim.

So, I can run around with my head on fire, or I can choose not to worry about it. Should this become an everyday, widespread phenomenon in the Orwellian sense, I might think differently. Right now, though, I've simply got other priorities.
 
Once More into the Breech!

This has been an excellent thread but very disturbing as well.

First, I refer you again (as I did in a separate post) to this site:

http://www.guncite.com/journals/okslip.html

It's a long and very thorough examination of the mechanics of how societies fall, or are pushed, down slippery slopes that deprive them of valuable and important civil rights. It uses the history of the loss of gun ownership rights in England as an example, but is really an examination of how it is an accumulation of small acts and failures to act that result in loss of rights and can very easily lead to tyranny. And, remember, well-intentioned tyranny is probably the worst kind! The relevance of this learned essay to NKW, SWAT, and my comments below should be evident.

My stance against the use of NKW and SWAT was a visceral thing, unrelated to informative data, until I started reading this thread. That there are now 50,000 NKW's and God only knows how many 'announce and enter' warrants annually is an abysmal black eye on the criminal justice system. All of you in LE risk becoming like minions at the lower level of the Gestapo who followed the direction of their superiors and left the thinking and value judgments to others. (NOTE: I did not here nor do I ever called LEOs the Gestapo; I merely point out how slippery some slopes are.) This issue - the increased militarization of LE - will indeed make LEOs the enemies of law-abiding, decent citizens if it is not stopped on constitutional grounds.

The parallels drawn to the Branch Davidian raid outside Waco,TX by Wuchak are as accurate as a Marine sniper! Before you dismiss me as a leftie or a kook, be advised that I visited the grounds of the Branch Davidian Compound within 18 months of the botched raid. At the time I was just idly curious, was in the neighborhood, and had the time. Like much of the nation I had seen some or most of the footage aired by the MSM. Because I 'didn't have a dog in the fight', I kind of figured that the tales about the aberration attributed to D. Koresh were the root cause and that the ATF and its confederates were guilty of little more than over-reacting to the death of their probing scout who was shown so many times being hit on the roof.

After my Sunday afternoon drop-in visit, my attention became much more focused. Standing there, I could not conceive of how the public peace could have been threatened, much less how or why the LEO could have wreaked such brutal, unnecessary havoc. BECAUSE OF THE REMOTE LOCATION AND LIMITED ROAD ACCESS THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN A THREAT TO SOMEONE WHO ATTACKED THEM. A squad of old men could have held them at bay for months - long enough to have starved them out and peacefully resolved any issues at law that they might have infringed. NO PERSON OF REASONABLE INTELLECT COULD POSSIBLY CONCLUDE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT THE LOSS OF LIFE ON BOTH SIDES WAS DUE SOLELY TO THE ENORMOUSLY BAD AND HUGELY INCOMPETENT COMMAND AND CONTROL EXERTED BY THE FEDS!!!! I have since seen countless TV programs including interviews with some of the principals who put endless spin on their actions. All I can say is that they will find their punishment in HELL because it looks like they have avoided it in our society.

I have spoken at length with the now retired Texas Ranger Captain in whose district the site exists. His assessment - and I have come to agree with it entirely based on my own personal research - is that the BDs posed no threat to anyone, that the Rangers and local LE (county sheriff) knew about the alleged arsenal as it was being acquired and thought it legal and harmless, and THAT THERE WAS NEVER A NEED FOR A WARRANT OR A RAID BY THE FEDS. The county sheriff and Koresh were well known to each other and on friendly terms. The sheriff would have been welcomed at the compound for any on-site inspection and would have been given carte blanche. If the feds had not been so arrogant and so conceited and asked the locals and enlisted their aid to gain an invitation to inspect informally, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. THE ONLY ANALOGY I CAN DRAW IS THAT OF JACK-BOOTED NAZI LEOs, MORE CONCERNED ABOUT SATISFYING THEIR HUBRIS THAN ABOUT DOING THEIR JOB LAWFULLY.

In addition to the gross incompetence of the commanders on the ground, and their inability to control their troops - especially after one of their SWAT scouts got himself shot and killed by his own ill-conceived actions - there are at least 3 other reasons for everyone to become incensed over it. First, the ATF has been given powers that have been, at the very least, exerted excessively (if not arrantly abused). This organization needs to be disbanded and its charters integrated into other LEOs. Second, the extent to which the US military participated in the raid has never been examined fully and openly communicated to the American people. IMO use of the US military for civil LE should only be possible with a warrant from the SCOTUS justices and co-signed by POTUS! The use of 'support' is far, far more common and is virtually unconstrained by political accountability or public knowledge. Third, the action was supposedly approved after review by the Attorney General of the US. Either that review was so incompetent as to be classed 'criminal' or the judgment was based on a more far-reaching need to establish principal.

Remember, too, that the Oklahoma City bombing was a direct result of fear and loathing generated by the execrable performance at Waco. The OKC bombings were misguided, senseless, criminal and in no way excusable; but we must all remember that it was caused by LEO incompetence on a grand scale.

The fact that we are now all inured to the pain and shock of both Waco and OKC - and the fact that our federal government has spun to stories to their favor while the MSM has under-reported and failed to criticize those culpable - has just raised the water temperature and we frogs have not hopped out and demanded REAL CHANGE. The next step in the loss of civil liberty will be easier to accomplish because we haven't screamed BLOODY MURDER!
 
Some things to think about.....wildinalaska wrote
"I would like to see some evidence of law abiding citizens being subjected to Home Invasion by folks masquerading as cops."
If someone starts trying to knock your door down, are you REALLY going to take the time to go to the window and see who it is?
I think the no-knock thing should be banned...period!! Too much chance of everyone getting hurt especially innocent people. If I was a LEO I would refuse to do it, and yep, I would probably be fired, but I wont compromize my beliefs for anyone.
I have worked with many retired LEO's and still employed LEO's and though there is good out there I have found many to be suffering from huge ego's. Many of them itching to have the rep of shooting someone, which is very dangerous. Not bashing at all, just what I have observed first hand.....Also, I think ANY citizen has more chance than any cop of getting shot period. Any criminal knows what happens to someone who shoots a cop. Is being a cop a dangerous job, sure, but so is driving a big truck, any quick shop clerk working third,....etc.
I think as someone else said to reinforce your entrances as much as you can so that it might buy you time to make the 911 call to verify the situation if someone tries to gain entrance to your home. I do know that bad guys are dressing up to recon your home and then return for criminal activity.
http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/InPerson/distraction_burglary.htm
 
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The idea that I can operate in good faith and there are people on this board that would advocate my prosecution makes me much more comfortable in the concept of De-policing that is all the rage in Police circles.

If the Police act maliciously or knowingly illegally, fine, game on. But, the idea that I make a typo I am going to criminally charged is disgusting.

If I understand your statement correctly, you think its not that bad for a cop to kill an innocent person, provided it really was an accident? You think an accidental killing by a cop should not be a crime? You Sir, disturb me deeply, and I hope to never visit the city where you claim to be an officer.
 
De-Policing

The idea that I can operate in good faith and there are people on this board that would advocate my prosecution makes me much more comfortable in the concept of De-policing that is all the rage in Police circles.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

De-policing is a "law enforcement strategy in which police avoid accusations of racial profiling by ignoring traffic violations and other petty crimes committed by members of visible minorities." 1 In a sense de-policing is the opposite of racial profiling.

De-policing represents a de-facto police strike, where the police withdraw an aspect of their crime prevention services. It is a practical police protest at perceived political interference in their day-to-day task of policing.


This sounds to me like someone on the public payroll refusing to do his/her job. That would - or should - be grounds for firing said public employee. Certainly, if I had ever refused to do my job as a political statement (I spent my career in the private sector) I would have been fired.

It is not enough to operate in good faith and exercise bad judgment, or worse. When anyone is given such power and authority, he had better be competent to handle it or be prepared to suffer the consequences. If you are not prepared for that, I suggest you resign before you do further harm.
 
Wildalaska, some links for you:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/06/23/state/n225639D35.DTL
http://www.vbgov.com/vgn.aspx?vgnex...c8e54cf18ad9010VgnVCM100000870b640aRCRD&ct=ne
http://danville-va.gov/l_police_med...2820&sub1menuid=2837&sub2menuid=3322&cid=4991
http://www.katu.com/news/18344944.html
http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/$$swp/A277473449D0BE878525726D005695D7
However, you are not that important that MS-13 is going to stage an assault on your home. To what end would the BGs expend all that time and money to assault your home
What time and money? All it takes is some mall ninja costumes and a drug habit. Do you ever read the newspapers?

BobH, good points.
 
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If I understand your statement correctly, you think its not that bad for a cop to kill an innocent person, provided it really was an accident? You think an accidental killing by a cop should not be a crime? You Sir, disturb me deeply, and I hope to never visit the city where you claim to be an officer.
Today 04:27 PM

You don't understand my statement correctly. Of course, it would be bad for an innocent person to be killed accidentally. It would be a "crime" however, what you miss is the totality of circumstances aspect of situations. A Police Officer REASONABLY carrying out his duties and something untoward happens should be ajudicated. But, the penalty if any should be very slight.

I have said from the beginning that NKWs that go awry are wrong and there should be administrative sanctions against Police Officers involved.
However, the piling on of hostility is concerning.

This sounds to me like someone on the public payroll refusing to do his/her job. That would - or should - be grounds for firing said public employee. Certainly, if I had ever refused to do my job as a political statement (I spent my career in the private sector) I would have been fired.

It is not enough to operate in good faith and exercise bad judgment, or worse. When anyone is given such power and authority, he had better be competent to handle it or be prepared to suffer the consequences. If you are not prepared for that, I suggest you resign before you do further harm.
Today 04:48 PM

No it is not refusing to do my job. My job is to enforce laws, make arrests and document criminal activity.

There is a huge difference between answering my radio calls and patrolling my beat and doing Police work.

De-Policing is not a political statement it is being minimally observant of the climate you operate in
How dare you insinuate I am not prepared for the job I have been doing for over twelve years spent mostly in areas you would be hesitant to frequent.

What time and money? All it takes is some mall ninja costumes and a drug habit. Do you ever read the newspapers?

Actually I don't read Newspapers anymore, way too liberal and sensational for me.

You are incorrect. there is a difference between several hypes and guys you might mistake for a bona fide SWAT team.
 
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The idea that I can operate in good faith and there are people on this board that would advocate my prosecution makes me much more comfortable in the concept of De-policing that is all the rage in Police circles.

If the Police act maliciously or knowingly illegally, fine, game on. But, the idea that I make a typo I am going to criminally charged is disgusting.

You will definately get the society you are asking for.

No reasonable Copper wants to hit the wrong house. There should be some sanction for errors,, but let's be reasonable.

Okay... to you, it's only a typo. You "only" mistyped 2142 Pinewood instead of 2412 E. Pinewood. So, instead of sending the SWAT team to the gang-infested, run down neighborhood east of the interstate, they arrive at 2142 in the center of town to raid the home of an 62 y/o couple at 4 a.m. The man dies of a heart-attack while handcuffed. Is any government employee responsible for this man's death?

Or perhaps your "little typo" says to raid apartment 330 in building F of a large complex, but it's really building "G". Hey, F and G are next to each other on the keyboard... just a little mistake.

But during the raid where it's expected to find two adults, you find two adults and 2 children. And their 13 year old, manages to use an aluminum baseball bat to smash the first officer coming through their bedroom door and is gunned down in front of his 8 year old little brother. Oh, gee, it was just a "typo".

You see what I'm getting at?

My city has some common addresses on Parkview, Parkview Place, Parkview Terrace, Parkview Road and Parkview Street. Something I learned trying to track down someone. And all of these are within 3/4 mile of each other, roughly speaking. Failure of an officer to provide the correct and full address and and will lead to failure.

It is one thing to operate in "good faith" and follow all of the protocols necessary to obtain a no-knock warrant. It's quite another to "pass off" to another officer so that the most knowledgeable officer cannot be asked detailed questions by a judge (I've seen this one first hand).

Good faith is not only advocating for the police to get the warrant, but being mindful of "shading" your answers to help get the warrant at the expense of the public. When a judge asks if any children reside at the location, claiming "None have been observed" is misleading and dangerous if you have, in fact, observed child seats in one or more vehicles at the address or have seen youngster's bicycles outside. That answer may be truthful (none have been seen) but there is plenty of evidence that indicates kids are there.

The government cannot mandate two different standards of "perjury" - one for citizens and one for governmental employees. Your typo on the document becomes official when you sign that the information is true and correct. If it is not and the result is raiding the wrong location, you HAVE committed perjury.

Here's how the government treats a "civilian" when they think they have lied "under penalty of perjury" on a government form.

When a coworker of mine bought her first handgun she filled out the 4473 form. She was only 24, unmarried and wanted it for protection. Up until shortly before the purchase, she lived in a small town with only one zip code. She moved closer to work (still a small town) and put down the wrong zip code, in error, on her 4473 form. Why? Because after 24 years in one zip code it becomes habit and it was a simple "typo" on her part.

But BATF treated it as a "willful perjury" and sent two agents to seize her firearm and present her with a summons to Federal court. She was in a panic about it. Fortunately, a lawyer at her church took her case pro bono and resolved it, but it took him 60 exasperating days to get her revolver back.
 
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BillCA.

What I was referring to was the fact that at the time that the warrant is being executed (before the realization that there was a screw up) the cops BELIEVE that they are in the right house so they will act accordingly. It will probably not become apparent that a mistake has been made until all occupants are secure and everyone stands down a bit. I can't speak for all, but, if it's my warrant, I personally lead the entry team to the residence (even if I'm not on entry). I do this for a couple reasons. First is I KNOW where I'm going. I've got photos, surveillance and probably video of the place burned into my head so I know what it looks like. Second is more personal in that should there be a mistake, it's mine and I'll bear the responsibility for it. I know that everyone will take the hit but I'll take the worst of it because I should.

The other thing that was brought up aside from hitting the wrong house, was hitting a house where no criminal activity is taking place. Essentially hitting the right house with bad PC. I won't even go into someone who lies on an affidavit because there are procedures in place to deal with them. Bad PC happens. You make every effort as a detective to avoid it but it happens. You don't base a search warrant on a single piece of information no matter how good your source or what the information is. If a source tells me that a subject is selling crank from his house, I can't go and get a warrant based on that. Now, if we buy crank from the house...different story. If several other independent sources all tell me the same thing and surveillance confirms lots of folks with dope histories coming to the house...well, now we're getting someplace. The resident has a criminal past for selling crank...even better.
This is ideal and we all know that it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you have to make the best of what you have and keep working it until either the PC is there or you determine that there is no criminal activity.


I'm not sure what you do for a living but having spent 18 plus years on the job (over 15 in narcotics) I think, without knowing your background, that I may have a little better understanding of the job and the associated risks. Maybe I'm wrong and you've got time on the job and just have a different view of things. It's ok to have opinions, even about things we know absolutely nothing about, and to express those opinions, but when it comes down to the reality of the job, get some first hand information if you would like to actually learn something.


I get the feeling that some folks on here are pretty anti-leo which is fine...everybody's got their issues, I don't like crotch rockets or domestic beer, but the whole "jack booted thug" thing and Gestapo references by some is both amusing and annoying. I would like some informed suggestions from the folks who have never executed a warrant how to go about hitting a potentially violent house full of gang members or dopers without using the dreaded SWAT tactics? No pie in the sky feel good, politically correct answers. Imagine that YOU were the first guy in the stack and tell me how to do it.

I'm getting popcorn and awaiting the string of suggestions...:rolleyes:

I can assure you that my warrants are carefully planned and executed and that I know as much about my target as is possible before hitting a location. Believe me in that if there is another way to do things (besides a dynamic warrant), I'll try and think of it.

Kalifornia is so different in regards to your laws from the rest of the country that it may as well be a different world so I can't speak for what takes place out there. All I can cover is my own little corner of the world which is plenty for me. In my area there are NO, NO knock warrants (the SAO won't authorize and Judges won't sign) and No getting a search warrant with bare information from one single untested source.

As for de-policing (what ever that is), remember that when the crack/crank/heroin dealer moves in two doors down from you and you call the cops to deal with it. If some folks had their way, we'd trade in our weapons, put flowers in our holsters and take more sensitivity training. Trust me in that those aren't the cops you want when you do need them but they are the ones you may get. Society is increasingly breeding superior criminals, unfortunately we're not training superior cops due to increased political correctness and emphasis on customer service (the most ridiculous concept ever applied to police work by administrators)

I'll admit that mistakes happen. Not often thank God but they do. Everyone is human and we make mistakes. The folks that have made mistakes like we're discussing are probably not in law enforcement any longer. Should they be? I don't know. Every case is different but the fact is most were probably abandoned by their agency and thrown to the wolves. We expect that any more. We try and minimize the mistakes and in general do a good job considering the constraints we have to work under. It's a great responsibilty we have and I don't lightly get authorization to legally break into someones house. If I do, you can bet it's the right house because I'm betting my career and potentially my freedom if it's the wrong one. Whats the worst that can happen to you if you make a mistake at work?


Sorry for the rant.
 
mskdgunman, You do not seem to realize that most of us debating this on behalf of the citizen feel a regular knock style alert of a warrant is fine in just about every single instance... The loss of some dope down the crapper is not worth the health of a possibly innocent citizen. And in the cases where the prosecution would be at risk due to flushed dope ya'll could have easily done controlled buys for numerous purchases to better your case. This doesn't even touch all the residue and paraphernalia evidence you harvest from a dope house. I think we all agree that warrants need served but many of us see no need for justifiable home invasion...
Brent
 
Wildalaska, some links for you:

Read between the lines Meek on all of those links, except the last one

Hate to say it but after reading wildalaskas last post I have lost all respect.Alex

My heart is broken:rolleyes:

I'll say it again..the likelihood of an "innocent" person getting home invaded by cop impersonators is infinetesimal.

The statistical likelihood of a No Knock getting screwed up is equally tiny.

WildthisisllmuchadoaboutnothingAlaska TM
 
The statistical likelihood of a No Knock getting screwed up is equally tiny.
Care to wager that per capita of the entire USofA on that? I am willing to bet their are more verifiable NKW's at the wrong address and poor info than there are police impersonator HI's...:rolleyes:
Brent
 
I get the feeling that some folks on here are pretty anti-leo which is fine...everybody's got their issues, I don't like crotch rockets or domestic beer, but the whole "jack booted thug" thing and Gestapo references by some is both amusing and annoying. I would like some informed suggestions from the folks who have never executed a warrant how to go about hitting a potentially violent house full of gang members or dopers without using the dreaded SWAT tactics? No pie in the sky feel good, politically correct answers. Imagine that YOU were the first guy in the stack and tell me how to do it.

I'm not a policeman. I've not spent one day on the force. I have however worked with LE on the local, state, and federal level. My uncle is a retired police chief for a suburb of Minneapolis. One of my good friends here in Baghdad is a former south central Los Angeles patrol officer.

This does not qualify me as a cop and I don't pretend to think that it does. I do however get a good glimpse of how things are because I'm accepted into that inner circle. I've heard the stories and I know the mentality. I know the character traits. Cops have their own little society and it has evolved into an "US verses THEM mentality." It's even worse at the Federal level cause now you have the word "agent" attached to your name and somehow this is interpreted to mean that we minions are all indentured to you. Its why the majority of you all keep to yourselves at home and have very few (if any) friends outside of work.

After all, it is a jungle "out there."

Your job is difficult and under appreciated. I totally agree. No one here has suggested otherwise. A lot of other jobs carry risk too. PSD assets here in Iraq also have a daunting task. They assume huge personal risk and liability. They too are the first to be cast to the wolves when things go to hell. I've worked in parallel with Blackwater USA (now called Xe for some stupid reason) for 2 years and 9 months. I've witnessed in 1st person some of their mistakes. Know though that for every screw up they've had, there's a 1,000 things they've done right.

Guess what? No one really gives a _hit.

My point is if you can't handle the job, get out and go work for UPS or a cake bakery. Whining about how daunting, risky, and thankless your job is on a gun site forum is pretty weak and it serves as a very poor attempt to distract from the heart of the real matter at hand:

Unannounced warrant sweeps trample on what this country is supposed to be all about.

It is an ineffective practice that needs to go away. You sit there advocating it when you should be refusing it because you TOO are an American citizen. Peel the blue 5.11 shirt off and take away your badge and your just like the rest of us. I often think that LE forgets this.

Now, to directly answer your question of how to do it when I'm on point with my shield and little pistol:

1st. I don't. There is no stack, there is no battering ram.

I fall back to what SWAT "really" means: Sit Wait And Talk. (a joke, but with a point)

I Sit until the sun comes up

I Wait until the people being served/arrested leave the house and I have a visual confirmation. (I know it's bad PR to profile but does a 60 year old woman really fit the portrait of a banger dealing crack or meth?)

I And as I move in to serve the warrant.

I Talk as they are served.

OR

I use "all of my training and experience as a police officer" to realize that these are not the people I thought they were and I start yelling abort at the top of my lungs so that I don't violate their civil rights because regardless of anything else these are my fellow citizens. Doing so greatly reduces the need to consider "opportunity, ability, and jeopardy". I also do this because it also puts my people at unnecessary risk and liability. Remember, our safety is also a major consideration.

The point is I find another way.


Imagine that YOU were the first guy in the stack and tell me how to do it.

I'll tell you that as the point on a stack I know that once I feel that squeeze on my shoulder I am the final decision maker and the events that follow ultimately rest on my decision to enter that house or to stand fast.

Just how many more of these balloons do you need to see?

Untitled.jpg
 
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Whoa. This is getting a little crazy. All cops don't want to be the Gestapo. I dare say that most warrant mistakes are due to stupidity on some losers part and not cops wanting to relive the Third Reich. I don't know whether it should be stopped or not, I was just wondering if there would be any recourse if you were charged for shooting someone you thought to be a criminal. The cop kicking in the door is just doing his job, the brass who gave an order with bad intel, or the guy who gave the brass bad intel is the one responsible. Corruption, screw-ups, and cover-ups are going to happen occaisionally in a beauracracy, getting tore all to pieces about it is foolish. I will say the map longrifles posted doesn't cast a very good light on raids though, assuming it is complete and accurate.
 
I expect there to be anti-LEO sentiment on any forum. I welcome it. It keeps me informed on the current attitude of many. It betters me on "one-to-one" encounters with potential adversaries. It helps me to better empathize with non-law enforcement.

LongRifles, I've read your posts and the amount of hatred toward the Badge and those that wear it, is beyond me. Quote; " I've heard the stories and I know the mentality. I know the character traits. Cops have their own little society and it has evolved into an "US verses THEM mentality." You need to sit down with some of those in that "Inner Circle" you talk about, lay it on the table.

I served "No Knocks" and "Knock And Announce", sitting there for 12 hour stretches waiting for relief.


You trying to understand the job of a SWAT officer serving a warrant is like me telling my younger brother (The 1st Sergeant of 3/2); that I know what it's like going door-to-door in Bagdad. I would not dare and I was a Marine in peacetime.
 
First, No one is whining about doing the Job. If anything it is yet another Col. Jessup moment

No one is advocating NKW unless there are exigent circumstances and reasons not to knock and announce.

The problem is there are people who aren't in the position to know what they are talking about speaking of prohibiting a proven Police practice because of a tiny percentage of errors.

The map with balloon had some subjective critera on it wouldn't you say?

But even stipulating to instances such as "paramilitary Police excess" I think you map proves my point. With the thousands of Warrants served to have that few bad outcomes Police are doing thier business in a very controlled accurate and Constitutional manner.

That is unless you adopt the "even one child killed by a gun is too many" Brady arguement. In which case I would refer you to any of the anti RKBA websites out there.


As a pest control tech I could be civilly liable for spraying the wrong yard and could be charged with trespassing as well. Why should your career be any different?
Brent

I am not saying if you screw up you shouldn't be liable. I am saying that there is a difference between acting in good faith and acting with malice and criminal intent

To use your example: if you spray the wrong yard you should be liable for the damage --if any to said yard. But, unless you knew it to be the wrong yard and sprayed it anyway or "Hey that Joe's yard I don't like him or his beliefs and I know that this pesticide will kill his beloved daisys" you haven't done anything criminal.

Knowingly and Intentionally are words I have written on every criminal complaint I have ever prepared.
 
LEMME FIRST SAY I AM NOT ANTI LEO!!!
I am, however, against excessive use of force. I assure you that if a full on, no flashing lights, no knock got served on my home while we are awake my wife will be the first one shot 2 COM! She will rise from her seat and confront faster than most men in this nation would. She has the "my babies" mentality that does not go away even though one child is 19 and the other is 17.
I would be like what the heck...:eek:
After we retire to our bedrooms I would be the first shot 2 COM as any noise signaling a burglary, robbery, or home invasion is met with SEVERE force and my paltry #3 buck out of the 20 gauge won't likely penetrate body armor.
KNOCK ON MY DOOR!!! I will answer it from the front porch and read your warrant and at the time attempt to explain that I am either the wrong guy or wrong home... Finally I will clear my home of my pets and await ya'lls search to satisfy that we are not the crooks you were after and that non of my firearms or ammo is stolen (READ: confiscated)...
Treat me with the respect my family deserves as law abiding citizens and I will reciprocate likewise as I understand that public servants in ya'lls line of work is a BUGGER!!! Heck I was 19 when I turned down a "sponsorship" to the academy offered by the highest ranked detective in the city I lived in. They wanted a level headed anti crime, thug,dope dealer, ganster type like me.
WHY?
Cuz at the time starting pay was a tick over 20-22K per year and I was making 18k cutting grass with no shirt in the florida sun and couldn't justify the uniform discomfort for few grand per year!
I respect the vast majority of LEO greatly... it is the procedures enacted by politicians "officials" in the force I do not respect.
Brent
 
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