Nine rounds of .380 vs five rounds of .38
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OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Radny97:
Add the draw time. Try for a little over 2.5 seconds total from the stimulus, nominally and as a general objective. I would not get hung up on timed exercises, and I would not shoot at same target from the same place repeatedly.
The classic Tueller demo shows an attacker with a contact weapon moving about 21 feet, on average, in the time it takes for a defender to draw and fire once. That shot then occurs at point-blank range, and one hit is unlikely to stop him in time.
My point was that those who go to the range and shoot at a rate of about one shot per second should consider that an attacker can probably move at about 5 meters in that second.
I'm not a fan of the "shoot twice and assess" school of thought. Should one find that two shots did not prove sufficient, the attacker will have moved that much closer.
Many defensive shooting instructors generally train very rapid shooting--say, about 4 shots in a second after drawing, in at least some of their drills.
The most recent course I took called for lateral movement and drawing while moving.
The defender has to balance speed and precision. If one is shooting great groups, one is almost certainly firing too slowly for a close-range encounter with a charging attacker.
Nor can I. I somehow completely missed "draw and".
Add the draw time. Try for a little over 2.5 seconds total from the stimulus, nominally and as a general objective. I would not get hung up on timed exercises, and I would not shoot at same target from the same place repeatedly.
The classic Tueller demo shows an attacker with a contact weapon moving about 21 feet, on average, in the time it takes for a defender to draw and fire once. That shot then occurs at point-blank range, and one hit is unlikely to stop him in time.
My point was that those who go to the range and shoot at a rate of about one shot per second should consider that an attacker can probably move at about 5 meters in that second.
I'm not a fan of the "shoot twice and assess" school of thought. Should one find that two shots did not prove sufficient, the attacker will have moved that much closer.
Many defensive shooting instructors generally train very rapid shooting--say, about 4 shots in a second after drawing, in at least some of their drills.
The most recent course I took called for lateral movement and drawing while moving.
The defender has to balance speed and precision. If one is shooting great groups, one is almost certainly firing too slowly for a close-range encounter with a charging attacker.
boltomatic
New member
For self defense, I'd go with the smaller round. I've done a LOT of real research on the issue of "stopping power" and its role in civilian self defense and its pretty clear that a gun is a gun when it comes to self defense and what really matters is that the gun fires when you pull the trigger and you can put rounds where you want them to go under stress. Having more rounds in your mag gives you a bigger saftey margin.
That said, I prefer the smaller round because everyone can shoot more accuracy and faster when there is less recoil to deal with. For an expert marksman with experience shooting in life threatening situations, it might not matter, but for the 99% of us that carry for self defense, its a big difference.
That said, I prefer the smaller round because everyone can shoot more accuracy and faster when there is less recoil to deal with. For an expert marksman with experience shooting in life threatening situations, it might not matter, but for the 99% of us that carry for self defense, its a big difference.
9x18_Walther
New member
1986 FBI Miami shootout is a key example of this.
I believe the 9mm Winchester Silvertip caused a fatal wound. Fatal - eventually...
DirtyHarold
New member
absolutely 9 rds of 380. I might even load the last 3-4 as some penetrators because if whatever I'm shooting at takes that many bullets it seems it needs something more serious.
I often come to the dilemma of carrying 7 380 hornady rounds or 5 speer gold dot 357 (out of a 3" too
). I feel like even if I miss/multiple assailants the sheer percussion and flame would make them realize that they are up against some serious sh!t and think twice about their actions. It also doubles as a flashbang in anything but a large open space.
I often come to the dilemma of carrying 7 380 hornady rounds or 5 speer gold dot 357 (out of a 3" too
). I feel like even if I miss/multiple assailants the sheer percussion and flame would make them realize that they are up against some serious sh!t and think twice about their actions. It also doubles as a flashbang in anything but a large open space.I would opt for the 5 rounds of .38. Here's why. As an LEO, I can tell you that MOST folks who have a CCW don't train. They carry, but they don't TRAIN for real world scenarios. By that, I don't mean go to the range and shoot 1000 rounds a month. That's marksmanship, not TRAINING.
I carry a 1911 at work, but if I have pants on, there's a 5 shot on my ankle and there has been for as long as I've been a policeman (22 years). That includes while I'm off. I have waded through water, snow, mud, and every other thing under the sun. It looks like it's been drug behind a pickup and used for a fence stretcher. It fires EVERY time I pull the trigger, regardless of it's last dose of maintenance.
Typically a gun fight will be an extension of something else (ie - a physical confrontation gone too far/gone wrong). With that, you're talking about arms length or a bit father. 10 yards would be a stretch, so accuracy really isn't a HUGE factor. Make no mistake, you still need to make good hits, but if you cant hit at 10 yards, a longer barrel won't help.
You would be surprised at how many times I have seen experienced police officers (who we force to TRAIN) experience total bewilderment when they have a malfunction. These are folks who TRAIN in malfunction drills and wounded officer drills, and still, there's full second or two of "oh s*it" when they hear click instead of bang THEN they remember their malfunction drill. A second or two is an ETERNITY when seconds actually matter.
The 5 shot (or ANY revolver for that fact) is simple to operate in that if it doesn't go off, simply pull the trigger again. Barring broken equipment or an empty gun, it will eventually go off if you keep squeezing. The 5 shot can't be disengaged from battery if you find yourself sticking the muzzle firmly between the first and second rib and pulling the trigger while someone is on top of you and you're fighting for your life. The 38 has superior ballistics than even the hottest .380. The 5 shot isn't prone to limp wristing, odd shooting positions, under powered/faulty ammo (not counting a catastrophic failure) or falling ill to dust bunnies and other abuse that a true carry gun is subjected to that would make a semi auto malfunction.
Everyone wants the latest and greatest semi auto pistol and want to stake their lives on it, but very few actually actually take the time NEEDED to train to that standard.
My semi auto duty pistol is my lifeline, but my 5 shot is my "I can count on it ALWAYS" gun.
I carry a 1911 at work, but if I have pants on, there's a 5 shot on my ankle and there has been for as long as I've been a policeman (22 years). That includes while I'm off. I have waded through water, snow, mud, and every other thing under the sun. It looks like it's been drug behind a pickup and used for a fence stretcher. It fires EVERY time I pull the trigger, regardless of it's last dose of maintenance.
Typically a gun fight will be an extension of something else (ie - a physical confrontation gone too far/gone wrong). With that, you're talking about arms length or a bit father. 10 yards would be a stretch, so accuracy really isn't a HUGE factor. Make no mistake, you still need to make good hits, but if you cant hit at 10 yards, a longer barrel won't help.
You would be surprised at how many times I have seen experienced police officers (who we force to TRAIN) experience total bewilderment when they have a malfunction. These are folks who TRAIN in malfunction drills and wounded officer drills, and still, there's full second or two of "oh s*it" when they hear click instead of bang THEN they remember their malfunction drill. A second or two is an ETERNITY when seconds actually matter.
The 5 shot (or ANY revolver for that fact) is simple to operate in that if it doesn't go off, simply pull the trigger again. Barring broken equipment or an empty gun, it will eventually go off if you keep squeezing. The 5 shot can't be disengaged from battery if you find yourself sticking the muzzle firmly between the first and second rib and pulling the trigger while someone is on top of you and you're fighting for your life. The 38 has superior ballistics than even the hottest .380. The 5 shot isn't prone to limp wristing, odd shooting positions, under powered/faulty ammo (not counting a catastrophic failure) or falling ill to dust bunnies and other abuse that a true carry gun is subjected to that would make a semi auto malfunction.
Everyone wants the latest and greatest semi auto pistol and want to stake their lives on it, but very few actually actually take the time NEEDED to train to that standard.
My semi auto duty pistol is my lifeline, but my 5 shot is my "I can count on it ALWAYS" gun.
Been shooting a long time,man...and I've seen revolvers lock up twice.
One was a fresh box of factory 357 magnum ammo which came with a squib load...the primer pushed the bullet halfway into the forcing cone, and required a rod to push it back in order to open the cylinder.
The second one was this year, when a guy at my range had a bullet walk forward while shooting a Ruger LCR 38...the bullet projected beyond the face of the cylinder, preventing rotation.
There are no guarantees.
I like revolvers plenty, and often depend on a 3" gp100.
As far as the OP's poll, I didn't vote, since there was no option for "both".
One was a fresh box of factory 357 magnum ammo which came with a squib load...the primer pushed the bullet halfway into the forcing cone, and required a rod to push it back in order to open the cylinder.
The second one was this year, when a guy at my range had a bullet walk forward while shooting a Ruger LCR 38...the bullet projected beyond the face of the cylinder, preventing rotation.
There are no guarantees.
I like revolvers plenty, and often depend on a 3" gp100.
As far as the OP's poll, I didn't vote, since there was no option for "both".
Andy Blozinski
New member
Bersa makes a double stack version of the Thunder, called the Thunder Plus. It's pretty much the same size, but packs 15 rounds. If I were going to get a Bersa, that's the one I'd get.
Doc Holliday 1950
New member
I agree with JDBerg.
Neither choice works for me. I'll carry my 357 mag GP100 with speed loader and feel very comfortable with this. A 125 grain HP 357 mag is quite sufficient
to handle "almost" anything that I'll encounter coming at me IMHO.
Doc
Neither choice works for me. I'll carry my 357 mag GP100 with speed loader and feel very comfortable with this. A 125 grain HP 357 mag is quite sufficient
to handle "almost" anything that I'll encounter coming at me IMHO.
Doc
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by 849ACSO:
They have terrible triggers, very short sight radii, very poor sights if you want to call them that.--and the light weight ones are not conducive to practice.
Anyone can make one go off, but putting four shots in less than a second into the upper chest area at five yards is something else.
"Empty gun" is the underlying subject of the tread.
If we want to introduce the subject of training, we really would ask whether anyone really believes that a five shot snub revolver is really a very good choice for a beginner.
They have terrible triggers, very short sight radii, very poor sights if you want to call them that.--and the light weight ones are not conducive to practice.
Anyone can make one go off, but putting four shots in less than a second into the upper chest area at five yards is something else.
I wholeheartedly agree that a snubnose revolver is not a beginner gun. I can't think of a better way to scare someone off of the shooting sports and shooting in general than taking someone who's never shot a gun to the range and letting them shoot full house 357 mag out of a snubnose. It's not particularly pleasant unless you know what you're doing and know how to handle and control recoil. That said I love snubnose revolvers. In my personal opinion I think that they are more inherently accurate as a general set up than any mouse gun or pocket gun. (I know it's somewhat controversial to say that but that's my experience and opinion.) I think they are an excellent gun for self-defense for the more initiated, but not the uninitiated.
I hate shooting small .38s, so the choice was easy. My favorite for summer pocket EDC is my Sig p238, 6+1 and a spare 7-rd mag on my belt. As almost everybody will tell you, it's pretty much hits that count, not the size of the bullet. If you miss with a .45, it's the same as a miss with a .22lr.
OldMarksman
Staff
Back a few generations S&W produced I-Frame revolvers in .38 S&W. The terminal ballistics performance has been described as dismal.
To meet law enforcement market demand, they enlarged and strengthened the frame to accept the much more powerful .38 Special. The new product was introduced at a law enforcement convention in 1950 with a 3" barrel, and became known as the Chief's Special. All steel, at first.
Considerations involving design geometry resulted in two notable limitations: a five shot capacity, and a much less than desirable long and heavy trigger pull.
Initially, their competition was the old Colt Detective Special. The trigger was better, but the main selling point was "the all important sixth shot". Some analysis will tell us that, depending upon the assumptions, adding 20% to the capacity of a five shot firearm can add a lot more than 20% to the probability of success.
Several things, including but not limited to advances in semiautomatic pistols, spelled the end of Colt's double action revolver business some years ago, and S&W continues. One finds that fewer and fewer police departments allow the carry pf revolvers of any kind, and that it is becoming difficult to find a course for users of snub revolvers.
I carried a 642 as a primary CCW for some time, but I retired it after getting an appreciation of what I might have to do with it after having taken a couple of classes.
What really amazes me is looking at it sitting next to a much more capable medium size 9MM pistol--not a true compact. The auto is thinner and just somewhat longer.
Of course, the trigger, grip, and sights are much better, and the capacity is much higher.
I'm not really a .380 fan, either.
To meet law enforcement market demand, they enlarged and strengthened the frame to accept the much more powerful .38 Special. The new product was introduced at a law enforcement convention in 1950 with a 3" barrel, and became known as the Chief's Special. All steel, at first.
Considerations involving design geometry resulted in two notable limitations: a five shot capacity, and a much less than desirable long and heavy trigger pull.
Initially, their competition was the old Colt Detective Special. The trigger was better, but the main selling point was "the all important sixth shot". Some analysis will tell us that, depending upon the assumptions, adding 20% to the capacity of a five shot firearm can add a lot more than 20% to the probability of success.
Several things, including but not limited to advances in semiautomatic pistols, spelled the end of Colt's double action revolver business some years ago, and S&W continues. One finds that fewer and fewer police departments allow the carry pf revolvers of any kind, and that it is becoming difficult to find a course for users of snub revolvers.
I carried a 642 as a primary CCW for some time, but I retired it after getting an appreciation of what I might have to do with it after having taken a couple of classes.
What really amazes me is looking at it sitting next to a much more capable medium size 9MM pistol--not a true compact. The auto is thinner and just somewhat longer.
Of course, the trigger, grip, and sights are much better, and the capacity is much higher.
I'm not really a .380 fan, either.
leadcounsel
Moderator
Excellent post from a very experienced individual and pretty much how I feel.
I've got a handful of .357s in various sizes, but the capacity and speed of reloads relegates them to safe duty, rarely carry duty.