Nine rounds of .380 vs five rounds of .38
- Thread starter Model12Win
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Independent George
New member
Everything's a tradeoff. To me, the Bersa is much too big for a .380 (whose main selling point is a smaller gun for concealment). Between those two choices, I'd take the 642.
That said, these days there are plenty of 9mm pistols on the market at that size class or smaller, or .380's that are MUCH smaller.
The 642 is roughly the same size/thickness as the Glock 26 class of semi-autos, while the Thunder is roughly the same size as the PPS (to give on example from a crowded 9mm market), and considerably larger than the LCP class of .380's. I understand the revolver tradeoff, but the Thunder just seems outclassed by its competitors.
That said, these days there are plenty of 9mm pistols on the market at that size class or smaller, or .380's that are MUCH smaller.
The 642 is roughly the same size/thickness as the Glock 26 class of semi-autos, while the Thunder is roughly the same size as the PPS (to give on example from a crowded 9mm market), and considerably larger than the LCP class of .380's. I understand the revolver tradeoff, but the Thunder just seems outclassed by its competitors.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by peggysue:
Should you need your gun, the nature of the city will have become irrelevant.
Five in a Colt?
More is better. My current EDC is a SAR B6PC 13+1 with 2, 17 round backup magazines. That's my comfort level of being prepared for the unexpected without feeling like I'm going overboard. I do intend to up the caliber to 10mm in the near future but even then it will be a 12+1 and 2, 20 round backup mags.
If you had a 15 round revolver I would say go with .38. If the Bersa can handle some hot Underwood ammo it might be a better option than a six shooter but I still wouldn't want to carry it every day when there are so many higher capacity higher caliber options available. IMO the only reason for .380 or under would be when only deep concealment would work for you.
If you had a 15 round revolver I would say go with .38. If the Bersa can handle some hot Underwood ammo it might be a better option than a six shooter but I still wouldn't want to carry it every day when there are so many higher capacity higher caliber options available. IMO the only reason for .380 or under would be when only deep concealment would work for you.
A pause for the COZ
New member
The 158gr service load for a 38 special has been proven time and again.
Since most if not all cases were CC holder needed to defend them selves.
Not many instances of more than three rounds being fired.
That being said, Its a personal choice. I carry a .380 quite often. But 100% of the time its for comfort and convenience. So its a sub compact pocket rocket. 6 round mag.
For normal carry I tote a XD's 45. If your going single stack for comfort. Might as well make a big hole.
One thing you may want to consider. I have carried a J frame for a while IWB.
Mine is steel and I have yet to find ANY normal carry gun that is more comfortable to carry.
Can carry all day and not even notice its there. I can just imagine how comfortable one of the new Ultra lights are. They do make speed loaders for revolvers and with a little practice you can get R done.
Its actually the wife's gun and she is getting her Carry permit and wants it back.
for me and 
for her.
I may buy one of the 5 shot ultra lights.
Or just do like me and carry what ever trips your trigger that day.
Since most if not all cases were CC holder needed to defend them selves.
Not many instances of more than three rounds being fired.
That being said, Its a personal choice. I carry a .380 quite often. But 100% of the time its for comfort and convenience. So its a sub compact pocket rocket. 6 round mag.
For normal carry I tote a XD's 45. If your going single stack for comfort. Might as well make a big hole.
One thing you may want to consider. I have carried a J frame for a while IWB.
Mine is steel and I have yet to find ANY normal carry gun that is more comfortable to carry.
Can carry all day and not even notice its there. I can just imagine how comfortable one of the new Ultra lights are. They do make speed loaders for revolvers and with a little practice you can get R done.
Its actually the wife's gun and she is getting her Carry permit and wants it back.
for me and for her.I may buy one of the 5 shot ultra lights.
Or just do like me and carry what ever trips your trigger that day.
I have a revolver with 8 rounds of 357 however 6 rounds of 38 work fine for me. I don't plan on fighting a bunch of thugs and the Vietnam War ended. I carry my gun for my self defense. I am not a cop. Would be interesting to see how many people posting here have used their gun in self defence and discharged it.
Model12Win
Moderator
I've heard the Bersa doesn't kick as bad as similar sized 9s. One reason why I got it.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by peggysue:
I suggest that a trained defender attacked by a fast moving violent attacker at close range would probably fire three to five rounds in very rapid succession at the first target. The second and maybe third? Perhaps fewer. Would the defender like to have a reserve? I would.
They might, or might not.
None of us plan on fighting anyone. But indications are that, in the unlikely event that we are accosted by violent criminal actors, an attack by two or more is as likely as not.
So, in the event of an attack, how many might one expect to need?
I suggest that a trained defender attacked by a fast moving violent attacker at close range would probably fire three to five rounds in very rapid succession at the first target. The second and maybe third? Perhaps fewer. Would the defender like to have a reserve? I would.
It is true that a sworn officer is likely to need more ammunition.
It would mot be wise for anyone to discuss that on a public forum.
dogtown tom
New member
If the first and second fired rounds miss the target how do they matter?
Only rounds that hit the target will matter.
Science!
T shirt, thermal LS shirt, button down dress shirt, sweater vest, sport coat+ rain coat= poor mans body armor.
I agree Bill, too much silliness about bullets vs heavy clothing.
I live in Plano, Texas, the safest city in America with a population over 250,000. It's less than a half hour by car from the roughest, most crime ridden neighborhoods of Dallas.
I can carry a black powder blunderbuss and it "works quite well" until I actually have to use it.
Seriously, you'll never know what works until you need it to work.
leadcounsel
Moderator
The difference is in war, you are more offensive or prepared for an offensive against many folks.
In self defense, you have to be able to be entirely reactive to any number of situations. I've studied and seen many reports or incidents and/or videos where multiple armed attackers required the defender to fire more than 5 rounds instantly. Accuracy will likely suffer dramatically under stress and movement (you and the attackers). And each person may require multiple hits. You might find that you've shot all 5 times and missed or did not hit shots to immediately stop the threat. Then what? Hard to reload when the slippery bleeding attacker is grappling with you or stabbing you.
Personally, a 5 shot is a good backup but for daily carry I want at least 8, 10 and ideally 12+ immediately ready without a reload. More is better in 9 or .40. More shots in a more potent caliber IMO. And a G19 is marginally bigger than the guns mentioned.
Bullets do weird things. In a test, sure the bullet cuts right through leather, down jackets, denim... But in reality heavy clothing may or may not effect the flight path of the bullet. And let's not forget that heavy bulky clothing may contain objects beneath them or otherwise distort the size/bulk of the person. I've read many reports over the years of small things like belt buckles, books, or cigarette lighters stopping bullets. You can read about these all day on the web.
Bra stops robbers bullet in Brazil: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/feb/07/bra-stopped-stray-bullet-brazil-woman-video
Bra stops hunter's stray bullet: http://www.thelocal.de/20150807/womans-bra-protects-her-in-shooting-accident
Cell phone stops bullet in Florida robbery: http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/29/us/florida-shooting-cell-phone-blocks-bullet/
Belt buckle stops pistol round (appears to be 9mm in size). http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/belt-buckle-stops-bullet-saves-life-in-shootout-18932200
Zippo stops bullet: http://gizmodo.com/5653339/zippo-lighter-saves-man-in-burglary-shooting
Book stops bullet: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/20/jason-derfuss-book-bullet_n_6192764.html
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dogtown tom
New member
And that's why it newsworthy.........clothing, cell phones, belt buckles stopping bullets is an extreme rarity. So rare they write a news article about the survivor.
Contrast that with the number of bullets that made it through clothing, bras, cellphones, etc and caused bodily harm............an everyday occurrence and other than the dead body not the least bit newsworthy. (and you can read about these all day on the web too.
)leadcounsel
Moderator
In fairness, seems it's not all that uncommon for bullets to do weird things and are not-uncommonly stopped by odd things in pockets. Note these are generally very small caliber bullets - and hence why I like 9x19 and larger.
I wasn't suggesting that clothing or items can be relied upon to stop bullets. I was providing evidence to address the question posed above about why the topic of heavy clothing comes up as justification for larger calibers and capacity in the winter. Albiet nearly zero, there is an increased chance of missing or the bullet acting weird when it goes through heavy clothing.
While I disagree with it and have not seen reliable evidence, SOME Korean War vets believed their .30 caliber M1 Carbine rounds were not as effective against winter-clothing clad enemies. Again, I think it's folklore, but there must be some truth to this widespread belief. Perhaps the larger target meant the puffier clothing resulted in misses and not hits. Dunno.
Pond James Pond
New member
I've been pondering this choice since the thread opened but have held back from a knee-jerk post.
First I'll make a couple of distinctions. From my point of view, being in a country that requires Condition 3 carry for all semi-auto's, then the choice is obvious: the .38Spl, although I'd prefer a 6-shot like mine.
However, if I ignore my own restrictions and assume the position of the OP where a chambered round is permissible for the .380 I'd have to choose the 9x17.
Revolvers have a lot of pluses, but for me I think the additional ammo of the semi would clinch it. The added rounds allow for using shots to not only try to incapacitate your assailant, but also dissuade further approach or keeping them behind cover as you make good your escape. Reloads are easier too if a spare mag is carried.
My occupation, local surroundings and area of residence suggest that mine is not as high a risk lifestyle as some in society but I still adhere to the "plan for the worst hope and live for the best" mantra as well as I can.
First I'll make a couple of distinctions. From my point of view, being in a country that requires Condition 3 carry for all semi-auto's, then the choice is obvious: the .38Spl, although I'd prefer a 6-shot like mine.
However, if I ignore my own restrictions and assume the position of the OP where a chambered round is permissible for the .380 I'd have to choose the 9x17.
Revolvers have a lot of pluses, but for me I think the additional ammo of the semi would clinch it. The added rounds allow for using shots to not only try to incapacitate your assailant, but also dissuade further approach or keeping them behind cover as you make good your escape. Reloads are easier too if a spare mag is carried.
My occupation, local surroundings and area of residence suggest that mine is not as high a risk lifestyle as some in society but I still adhere to the "plan for the worst hope and live for the best" mantra as well as I can.
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OldMarksman
Staff
Clothing can affect the expansion performance of hollow point bullets. For that reason, the FBI test protocols include layers of different fabrics in the test penetration media.
A pause for the COZ
New member
I would agree, but we need to factor in they were shooting at combat distances. Shooting at a swarm of Chicoms coming over a hill 300 yards distance. They may just have bounced off the thick clothing.
30-06 would be preferable.
Up close and personal is what we are talking about.
No doubt in my mind a .380 can kill at this distance.
My decision is based on the fact that all hand guns are not hitting with the velocities needed for immediate knock down. He may in fact die of his wounds, but he may also kill you in the process.
I vote for mass. Hit them with some thing heavy.
I carry them all. But I think the only real 38 cal that can knock em down reliably is the 357 magnum. Getting that in a small concealable package is a hand full.
I tried the Polymer Framed revolver in 357 Mag. WHEW!!! Hang on.
Until I got the XD's 45. I tried to carry my full size 1911. Winter I could get it done. But no chance in the summer.
I have been practicing pretty regularly with the XD's and have good confidence in it.
Another good option to look at for the carry comfort would be a 44 special revolver. 5 shots of 44 is better than 5 shots of 38.
I may be missing some thing, but most of the data that I see relating to the use of the 9's et all.
Are police dept use carrying full sized. They usually just start blasting and keep blasting. 3 guys shooting 30 plus rounds and hitting 4 or 5.
You would think since they start from the ready with guns drawn they could have a better hit ratio. But I digress.
My term of use are different, For CC I assume would be up close and personal. Want to hit hard and get away.
If I am in a different scenario. I must have screwed up and not payed attention to my surroundings.
Obviously this is just my opinion. So take what ever grain of what ever you want.
We make our own choices using what ever information we deem important.
It is a life a death decision. So choose wisely.
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The choice of either the 380 or 38 special will be determined on a number of factors for each individual shooter. Gun size, time of year (amount of clothing), Weight of the pistol, and shooter's ability to use either type of firearm.
As to similarity of the rounds, there is NONE. One uses a 95 grain bullet (380) the other a bullet of 124 to 157 grains of lead. One uses about 3 grains of powder (380) the other twice the amount of powder (38 Special).
As to how many rounds a shooter will need in the weapon will depend on how good or bad the person can shoot, not the number of attackers. Everyone is running for cover once shots are fired. Both, for the most part, are short range weapons, the 380 having a 3 inch barrel of which 1/2 inch of it being taken up by the casing and the 38 having a 2 1/2 inch barrel. As too power, the 380 is a "Blow Back" design and a lot of the energy is used to cycle the slide where as the 38 special is a revolver and most of the energy goes out the barrel except for the energy that leaks out from the opening between the cylinder and the forcing cone.
Neither are power house rounds, if that was the only consideration then everyone would be caring a 44 mag revolver or a 50 AE pistol (or a 10 MM).
So your choice will depend on a lot of other factors other than caliber of the weapon. There are a lot of weapons out there that are of similar size that can serve the same role. My choice was a Bersa 45 compact pro or my CZ 75 P-01 as you can see they are all about the same size as the Bersa Thunder 380. I prefer them over my 38 special, but that's just me, all will server the same purpose.
As to your choice, well, good luck on that, I can't do that for you.
Stay safe and shoot straight.
Jim
As to similarity of the rounds, there is NONE. One uses a 95 grain bullet (380) the other a bullet of 124 to 157 grains of lead. One uses about 3 grains of powder (380) the other twice the amount of powder (38 Special).
As to how many rounds a shooter will need in the weapon will depend on how good or bad the person can shoot, not the number of attackers. Everyone is running for cover once shots are fired. Both, for the most part, are short range weapons, the 380 having a 3 inch barrel of which 1/2 inch of it being taken up by the casing and the 38 having a 2 1/2 inch barrel. As too power, the 380 is a "Blow Back" design and a lot of the energy is used to cycle the slide where as the 38 special is a revolver and most of the energy goes out the barrel except for the energy that leaks out from the opening between the cylinder and the forcing cone.
Neither are power house rounds, if that was the only consideration then everyone would be caring a 44 mag revolver or a 50 AE pistol (or a 10 MM).
So your choice will depend on a lot of other factors other than caliber of the weapon. There are a lot of weapons out there that are of similar size that can serve the same role. My choice was a Bersa 45 compact pro or my CZ 75 P-01 as you can see they are all about the same size as the Bersa Thunder 380. I prefer them over my 38 special, but that's just me, all will server the same purpose.
As to your choice, well, good luck on that, I can't do that for you.
Stay safe and shoot straight.
Jim
