Nine rounds of .380 vs five rounds of .38

Which for primary CCW?

  • Nine rounds of .380 ACP

    Votes: 75 59.5%
  • five rounds of .38 Special

    Votes: 51 40.5%

  • Total voters
    126
  • Poll closed .
Posted by Jim243:
As to how many rounds a shooter will need in the weapon will depend on how good or bad the person can shoot,....
Actually, it will depend first and foremost on what the defender happens to hit or miss within the attacker's body. That will depend in part on skill and in part on luck.

....not the number of attackers. Everyone is running for cover once shots are fired.
Oft repeated, but not always true, and seldom thought through.

Do all of the other attackers always immediately realize that the defender, and not one of the attackers, has fired the shots?

Do all of the other attackers always believe that their best chance is to try to outrun the defender' bullets rather than to close and complete that attack?

Do all of the other attackers always conclude that leaving on foot will afford a better chance of escape than taking the defender's car?
 
^^^^ I agree my .380 is a Browning BDA and my snubbie is a S&W 19-3, I can't carry here (yet) but if I could I'd use the above for guide lines.
 
Last edited:
As too power, the 380 is a "Blow Back" design and a lot of the energy is used to cycle the slide where as the 38 special is a revolver and most of the energy goes out the barrel except for the energy that leaks out from the opening between the cylinder and the forcing cone.

Oh BOY!!!! Completely false info there. The bullet has left the barrel of the auto-pistol BEFORE the breach opens. Basic physics. The heavy slide and recoils spring hold everything closed until AFTER the bullet has exited the muzzle and pressure drops to safe levels (not quite 1ATA, but close).

The reciprocating slide does not take any energy away from the projectile.
 
I have a revolver with 8 rounds of 357 however 6 rounds of 38 work fine for me. I don't plan on fighting a bunch of thugs and the Vietnam War ended. I carry my gun for my self defense. I am not a cop. Would be interesting to see how many people posting here have used their gun in self defence and discharged it.

I'm with you. I am prepared to defend myself against common street thugs committing the typical street crimes common street thugs commit. If my 5 shot snubbie is not enough, then I guess I can be the first actual case talked about on this forum of a non-LEO who got killed because he ran out of bullets and was unable to to take out his 6th attacker while trying to escape an attack. I can be the infamous legendary case that all instructors will refer to when talking about what not to carry. I hope they get my name right. :)
 
If my 5 shot snubbie is not enough, then I guess I can be the first actual case talked about on this forum of a non-LEO who got killed because he ran out of bullets and was unable to to take out his 6th attacker while trying to escape an attack.

That sentence presumes that the good guy will have a 100% hit rate and that each hit will get a one-shot stop. While you may well respond that presuming five attackers was hyperbole, the facts that handgun rounds do not give reliable one-shot stops and I am unlikely to get a 100% hit rate while being shot are what caused me to change from a 5-shot snubbie to a semi for routine carry a few years back.

Carry what you like, but be realistic about its limitations.
 
^^^ I agree.

I am prepared to defend myself against common street thugs committing the typical street crimes common street thugs commit. If my 5 shot snubbie is not enough, then I guess I can be the first actual case talked about on this forum of a non-LEO who got killed because he ran out of bullets and was unable to to take out his 6th attacker while trying to escape an attack. I can be the infamous legendary case that all instructors will refer to when talking about what not to carry.

Having read a variety of reports, trained law enforcement hit rates are dismal in shootings. Here's one such report. http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

In other reports I've seen studies ranging from 9% to a max of about 25% hit percent, or an overly generous 30%. We assume (right or wrong) that LEO has some level of training and expertise. Let's not delve into LEO v Civilian carry, that's not the point.

Factor in stress and movement and let's say your hit rate is better than LEO and say it's 30%. That means if you limit yourself to 5 shots, and use all of them, you hit 1.5 or 2 times rounding up. No such thing as one-shot stops, but you can assume that your hit with a handgun round will NOT automatically stop your assailant. With those stats, if you have say 3 attackers, you will not score a hit on assailant #3, and maybe not even on #2 depending how your hits are divided.

For ME, personally, I'll prefer a larger capacity weapon; 15 rounds gives you 5 hits, using those figures above. Not great, but surely better than 1 or 2 hits.

You also have to factor they may likely have weapons and be using them against you, firing at you, swinging a bat, etc.

Watch this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7SPrb6oj4

This is a very realistic self defense situation. Have an open mind, and think about your reaction. Count the shots, and look at the actions.
 
Last edited:
Posted by TimSr:
I am prepared to defend myself against common street thugs committing the typical street crimes common street thugs commit.
What are "common street thugs", what are the "typical street crimes" that you believe that common street thugs commit, and in what way is it that you believe that you are "prepared" to defend yourself?

If my 5 shot snubbie is not enough, then I guess I can be the first actual case talked about on this forum of a non-LEO who got killed because he ran out of bullets and was unable to to take out his 6th attacker while trying to escape an attack.
That just about pins the needle on the naivete meter!

Forget five attackers. What likelihood do you think you would have of hitting, with one shot, a small, moving, hidden, critical part within the body of a fast moving violent criminal actor, and effecting a timely stop in the process?

Would you gamble your safety on the extremely slim chance that you might do so, or would you shoot several times very rapidly, as most people are trained to do?

Should you somehow happen to effectively stop one opponent with one shot. what do you think the probability would be of your doing that again on a second attacker?

And so on?

You really, really should avail yourself of some good defensive pistol shooting training. Not square range practice. Defensive pistol shooting training.

You might also look into finding an interactive laser simulation training facility. One place to find them is at the several Gander Mountain Academies, but there are others. You could, in the meantime, enlighten yourself by watching on-line videos of some really top trainers having to shoot several times at each of two or more assailants in realistic real-time simulations. Should that sound unkind, let me assure you that I was impressed both by the videos and by the fact that the participants reported that they found the experience stressful.

This two minute preview should serve as an appetizer. I do recommend going for the premium membership.

I have trained under Pincus. I highly recommend it.

I started out carrying a 5 shot .38 some seven years ago. Why not--they do the job in screen fiction. But like TailGator, a little knowledge of stopping capability and hit rates and some training led me to put it in a back-up role a long time ago.
 
Jim243 ..... As too power, the 380 is a "Blow Back" design and a lot of the energy is used to cycle the slide.....
No, the .380 is a CARTRIDGE.
Pistols in .380 can be blowback design, locked breech or of any other design.
 
About three months ago there were two self-defense shootings in my area within a week of each other. One was an attempted carjacking the other was an attempted home invasion. In both events the person being attacked drew their firearm and fired a single shot at the assailant. In both events the assailant was killed with a single shot. Moral of the story and answer to the above question? Whichever gun you shoot best with. Ability to place shots on target is more important than magazine capacity. Personally I shoot better with the revolver so that's what I use. Plus 38+p is more powerful.
 
I don't like the 380 round, because of all of the new slim 9mm. I occasionally carry my smith and wesson body guard in .38, but mostly carry my glock 26. If those were my two options I would carry the Bersa.
 
Posted by Radny97:
About three months ago there were two self-defense shootings in my area within a week of each other. One was an attempted carjacking the other was an attempted home invasion. In both events the person being attacked drew their firearm and fired a single shot at the assailant. In both events the assailant was killed with a single shot.
That the perps died is interesting, but the real question is how quickly the attackers stopped attacking.

In both events the person being attacked drew their firearm and fired a single shot at the assailant. In both events the assailant was killed with a single shot. Moral of the story and answer to the above question? Whichever gun you shoot best with.
The "moral of the story" is that both defenders hit something within the blades of the assailants that did the job. They may or may not have had any idea about what parts of the anatomy they shot.

Ability to place shots on target is more important than magazine capacity. Personally I shoot better with the revolver so that's what I use.
How do you define shooting "better"?

Plus 38+p is more powerful.
True.
 
I own both guns the OP mentioned. Between the two, I carry the S&W 642 because I can pocket carry it easily, while the Bersa Thunder is a bit too large for me to do that on a regular basis.
 
And be realistic about the potential threat.
To justify the threat or use of deadly force, the defender must (1) be in immediate danger from someone who can cause serious harm and who has provided some some indication that he or who will do so right then should the defender do nothing; and (2) the defender must have no other alternative.

One can reasonably expect the attacker to be moving quickly, for his own evil purposes and survival strategy. That movement will likely be an important element of justification.

The defender will have to react--to draw, present, and if necessary, fire--very quickly indeed.

The mere presentation of a weapon may suffice, but the defender cannot count on that. A single shot that is fired and that misses may suffice, but the defender cannot cannot count on that, either. A hit that does not seriously injure an attacker may result in a psychological stop, but one cannot count on that.

To effect a stop by inflicting serious physical injury, one will have to hit at least one critical part of the attacker's anatomy, and perhaps more. All of those parts are small. and they are hidden from the defender's view in a large three dimensional body, and they will be moving irregularly. Unless some of them are damaged, counting on a stop simply because the attacker has been hit somewhere in, say, the chest would be akin to drawing on an inside straight.

Because he or she cannot see the critical internal targets; because he or she cannot take the time to try to assess where they might be; and because the target is moving and the defender must shoot quickly, the defender cannot realistically count on damaging them though marksmanship. The defender will be trained to shoot several shots quickly at, say, the upper chest area (or slightly behind it, if the attacker is coming around a car or gas pump at an angle), with the hope that some of the bullets do the job. The defender must count on luck, and the more controlled shots he or she can fire very quickly, the better his or her luck is likely to be. It's all a matter of probabilities.

Should an attack occur, the likelihood that there will be two or more attackers is at least as high as the likelihood that there will be only one. It is possible that stopping one will dissuade the others, but one cannot count on that.

I think that probably describes the likely potential threat in a self-defense situation rather accurately.

My approach toward risk mitigation has been to avoid questionable places; to train and practice; and to carry a firearm that I can access and shoot quickly, rapidly, and with control. My choice is more powerful than a .380. It carries 60% more ammunition than the 642 upon which I once relied.
 
OldMarksman I can give you a few more details about the two attacks. The home invasion was a man attempting to enter an apartment. He was impaired and angry yelling and he apparently thought the apartment was his and was trying to break down the door. The shooter was an older man who fired one shot through the door into the chest of the assailant, killing him at the scene. It was a 40 cal.
The carjacking was a young man on meth attempting to take the car of a 65 year old woman in a grocery store parking lot. A bystander intervened and pulled his compact 1911 style 45. He directed the assailant to stop from about 10 feet away. The assailant rushed him and one shot was fired to the chest. The assailant collapsed on the ground at the shooters feet and later died at the hospital. County attorney announced a few days later that there would be no charges in either case.
As to shooting better, I define that as shooting accurately and quickly. I shoot very well in double action from a revolver. I can draw and place 5 shots on a 8 inch plate at 7 yards in about four seconds with my LCR. I'm happy with that for self-defense. I can't pull that off with a compact 380 so I don't carry it.
 
Last edited:
And for every 1-shot stop, there are dozens of average people who survived multiple direct point blank shots from handguns, shotguns, and rifles. 1-shot stops are attributed to nothing more than luck. Plain and simple. Few people have the ability and training to hit once. In fact, a 1-shot stop tells the story that the person is NOT trained because trained people will likely double tap faster than the person can collapse and die. I'm speculating, but one can infer they likely simply got very lucky.

I'm not counting on luck. I've seen plenty of shootings where the individual hit is able to keep fighting for some time.

Shooter attacks cop, and is fatally shot in the chest, but manages to keep dodging and weaving, and firing, and flees in his car and is later found dead slumped over the wheel. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-state-trooper-kids-sit-car-article-1.1476110
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-state-trooper-kids-sit-car-article-1.1476110

Police apparently hits driver multiple times at 5' distance, and driver is still able exit car present a handgun and shoot at least once before being disabled. It's fair to assume that the cop was using a high-performance hollow point ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMOF3gYwgo

Then again, also keep in mind that bullets shoot both ways, and 1-shot stops against YOU are possible. So it's important to end the fight in your favor as soon as possible and instants count.

Tragic police stop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5vZRyJ-bc

Your best bet is to hit with greater number and potent bullets. You do this wiht higher capacity and better bullets/size/performance/design. This increases the chances, since it really is just a numbers game (assuming the averages).
 
Last edited:
I can draw and place 5 shots on a 8 inch plate at 7 yards in about four seconds with my LCR. I'm happy with that for self-defense.
The 8 inch plate is fine, but strive for five shots in just a bit over one second at 3 to 5 yards.
 
^^^^^^
That's sayin' somethin'
I don't know any guys in my idpa club that can pull that off and we have some guys who are shooting tier 3 matches.
I could probably pull off the shots in that time from low and ready but a draw too? No way.
 
mix

Obviously, there's several variables here, not just caliber/load, but handgun type as well.

I think the "stopping power" of the two loads, is indeed about equal. I'm suspect of the .380 due to its low bullet weight, but all and all see both ctgs in the same light.

I find the .380 auto's, my .380 anyhow, a SIG230, much easier to shoot and am far more accurate and faster with it. The only modern .380 I've shot much is the Ruger LCP, which was for me hard to shoot well, due to its diminutive size. The semis all reload faster than a DA revolver. Capacity is a plus. And my SIG is plenty reliable.

I find the snub .38's, esp the old standby the 5-shot Chief , hard to shoot well much beyond 3 yds distance. Better grips help, but the sights are awful, even when my eyes were better.

In truth, these guns, for me, are compromises, when circumstances/dress, dictate that I simply cannot seem to have a bigger handgun aboard. Dropping one in a pocket is a simple act, and is deep concealment. But when I do so, I always feel a bit undergunned.

When I can holster carry , I get a bigger gun.
 
Back
Top