Nightmare gun sale and jerk FFL

I quickly glanced at the other forum and saw where you have contacted the ATF and they are calling the dealer. I hope this resolves it.

I also see from your original post that the buyer knew you were not using a FFL dealer on your end. Unfortunately, it appears he didn't tell his dealer and his dealer is a jerk. I suppose the lesson to be learned here is that if a seller ships directly to the FFL, he should contact the dealer himself to confirm the dealer will accept it from a non-FFL.
 
PBP....What is up with that FFL! He needs to swallow his pride since he is in the wrong and do what is right.

Have you heard from the ATF agent in AZ??

I will definitely subscribe to this thread!
 
How about this - if that moron of a FFL won't do the transfer - have him transfer it to another FFL in that town so the buyer can get it
 
If you haven't...

...done so, get a lawyer. Right now, until either the ATF or LE acts in the FFL's state, you're spinning your wheels. You have done everything necessary, and legal, based on your posts. Nothing else you can do, short of going there (Is that a possibility?).

Perhaps a phone call from an attorney on your behalf, might loosen things somewhat. You may also want to call the local bar association in the area, and discuss with them.

The buyer may well have stopped payment on the check. You need to take it to your bank, and deposit it in a separate account from your own checking. Call it an escrow account. If the check bounces, you won't risk having money come from your checking account. It will also prove your honest intent. It will also prove the buyer's intent, if he stops payment.
 
I have arranged for an unlicensed individual to ship a gun to my dealer (who knows the law), but I will not ship that way, only through my dealer. I provide the box, wrapping, address label, return address label (FFL) so that the dealer has nothing to do except drop the box in with his other shipments. The fee is minimal and no one gets bent about the way it is handled.

On the current issue, I wonder if it is a scam between the buyer and his FFL to keep the gun and get you to refund the money as well. Else, why would the dealer take a chance on having the gun in his store. (BATFE insists that EVERY gun in the shop, except a dealer's personal property, have a valid paper trail. If, as he insists, the shipment violated the law, then he is violating the law by having a gun with an invalid paper trail.)

Jim
 
just my 2 cents

I don't personally know anything about firearm transfers other than private sell f2f. But if the FFL is in posession of the gun he must have accepted it. I'm sure the delivery form required a signature. So the options you have are 1 you are done transaction complete and let the buyer report the gun stolen. 2 report it stolen yourself refund the money and let the ffl face the consequences. 3 either you or the buyer take the ffl to court and sue for specific performance which may be hard if the ffl hasn't accepted a transfer fee. But to me if he has the gun he must have accepted it. Had his intent to be not to accept it he would have immediately rejected and returned to sender without ever taking posession.
 
WOW, talk about a mountain out of a molehill!!!

You ship a gun to a dealer who only accepts from an FFL (their legal right and more and more FFL's are going that way) who opens the box and discovers no FFL from you so he refuses to do the transfer.
Your only option is to have the gun shipped back to you but since you are not an FFL they cannot legally ship back to you. You need to provide them with a copy of a local (to you) dealers FFL to send it back to.
Instead, the sheriff, BATF, and your lawyer gets called...

The problem starts with your buyer who should have gone thru an FFL that accepts from a non FFL. I'm guessing your buyer did not know about this and you never asked, checked or informed him.

And BTW, while federal law allows non FFL to FFL transfers, some states do not. Since you are the one selling the gun and shipping it across country you (or at least your buyer) really need to know the rules/laws of where you are sending that firearm off to to prevent these types of problems.

All this said, I'm not condoning the FFL's actions in handling this so far.

Jim
 
If the FFL has had the revolver for over 3 weeks, then it's reasonable to consider this acceptance. His failure to deliver it to the buyer is a dispute solely between the buyer and the licensee. You (PBP) have fully performed based on your presentation of the facts.

As others have alluded, questions of federalism are not always so clear. Even if California law required licensees in California to only take receipt from another licensee, regardless of residence, the burden is on the ffl holder in California to insure compliance. That is the CA ffl should have requested a ffl letter and informed PBP of their obligations under CA law, assuming there even is such a requirement.

Write a demand letter to the CA ffl and cc the buyer, ATF, and whatever CA agencies you think may apply. And of course save all correspondence you've had with the seller, CA ffl, and anyone else involved. Especially all details regarding performance of the contract (i.e. your agreement with the buyer for the purchase of your revolver).
 
Just goes to show that there's bad juju whenever you sell a classic Colt revolver. You're supposed to hang on to them! ;)
 
Just to help keep everyone moving along with the storyline, the FFL is in Arizona, not California. CA was mentioned early on only as a "for instance."
 
"I smell something":( I've done one transaction like that, sat on pins and needles for weeks. Days after buying my gun, it still showed up on line as still being 4-sale. I know it works all the time and thousands of deals are made an hour, but no more, I want to touch and feel, finalize transaction in person. I would of cashed check a long time ago, you did nothing to throw a wrench in the deal. ;)
 
I really hate to have to do this...

...but after speaking to my attorney, showing him the posts on the local board, and playing some very threatening voice messages from Sam's today I have been advised to not accept return shipment of this gun at this time. My attorney is checking to make sure the information the local ATF provided (saying I was within the law to ship the gun to the FFL) and if it is he says I should now let the situation be handled locally and pursue other actions towards the FFL if needed. He said there is no way I could expect this person to be acting in good faith at this time based on his actions.

The guy even had the poor judgement to threaten to turn the gun over as a stolen gun to the local authorities in a voice mail. My attorney says that would constitute a false police report since his own store policy does not supersede the state and federal laws. If he did not want to accept from a non-FFL then it was his responsibility to make sure I was one before sending me his FFL information and threatening to punish me now for his own error places him in a very sticky situation. Especially when he lets himself be recorded admitting to his ill conceived intentions.
 
What a dirt bag that guy is. Sounds to me like he needs a good old fashion butt whooping. The kind where the person doesn't get out of bed for a couple weeks.
 
Sounds to me like the FFL wants the gun for himself, and trying everything he can to intimidate you...low-life tactics for sure.
 
I think you just need to wait another day or so...

what seems to have happened is somebody at the store screwed up and did not inform the buyer that they only accept guns from other FFLs.... then when they faxed you (PP) their FFL that same person or another employee failed to check and make sure you were an FFL... that is easily done on line by the way...

All they have to do is call the ATF and find out they can actually legally transfer the firearm to the buyer and just do it... Yes, it will be a violation of their company policy... but who makes that?

I think the owner just got a bee up in his britches and can't seem to get it out.

If you could have a reasonable conversation with the FFL then possibly he could run a back ground check on you.... I know when ever I've had a gun shipped to my FFl for a transfer they require a copy of the sellers drivers license and a signature in colored ink.... I'm sure if need be you could send him what ever identification he needs... even have it notarized like the CMP request.
 
Just wondering . . .

What has the buyer's reaction been?

If I negotiated a sale and made payment, I'd be just a tad sore that the FFl had effectively impounded what is now my property. There wasn't any hiccup in the NICS check at the other end, was there?
 
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