Nightmare gun sale and jerk FFL

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Playboypenguin

Moderator
I recently sold my Colt Anaconda to another board member on my local gun forum. I did not want to sell it to them at first since they are not local and I did not want to ship it. They convinced me they would cover shipping and that they did not mind the added cost so I agreed to do it.

In our e-mails they asked about the FFL fees on both ends and I told them that the only FFL fees would be on their end since I would not use an FFL. I would simply pay the extra money to ship it overnight via FedEx. That accepted this and continued with the deal. Their FFL faxed his license to my home and everything seemed in order so I shipped the gun.

A couple days later I get a call from his FFL telling me they will not accept the gun because I violated federal law by mailing it to them without an FFL on my end. The guy on the phone said "I am turning the #@%&^ gun over to the law." I told him that federal law did not disallow individuals from shipping a gun to an FFL and that it was pretty sad he did not know this. he hangs up on me and then calls me back about 15 minutes later telling me that they will not take it because I violated their "store policy." I told him to talk to his customer and decide what they were going to do. He says "I am rejecting this package and having it sent back."

That was over three weeks ago.

Now I keep getting e-mails from the buyer defending his FFL saying "he goes by the book" and that I should not have sent it myself and that he did not know I was doing that. I referred him to our e-mail conversations where I clearly stated that was exactly what I was doing and that it was legal. This guy has no right to be mad at anyone except for the jerk he chose to use as an FFL. It is not my fault he chose the cliche' jerk gun dealer.

So now it has been three weeks and the FFL on his end has not returned the gun and keeps threatening to turn it over to police on his end. I spoke to an ATF rep yesterday and they said the FFL has already violated the law by holding the gun this long and that what I did was totally legal.
 
Obviously the only logical solution is for the ATF to step in and chop the Anaconda in half.:rolleyes:

At least you got your check, right? I can't imagine shipping a gun anywhere for a transfer without getting paid first.

Is the ATF going to step in and resolve this somehow for you and your buyer?
 
I would assume that you recieved your money prior to shipping? Seems like the buyer has a problem on his end.
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Yes and no. I do not want to leave the buyer in a bad situation so I am willing to have the gun returned to me and refund his money. I just do not feel that I should be the one putting forth all the effort to make it happen. I gave the buyer contact info for my local FFL but he keeps insisting this is between me and his FFL and he does not want to step into it.
 
Be careful!

My little understand applies to California only and you cannot ship or receive a weapon unless its through an FFL.

In California, you cannot ship a gun without an FFL to a person that has an FFL.

Don't put yourself out there anymore and protect yourself. I assume you received your money and he has the gun?

I strongly suggest not putting anymore information on this open forum just in case!

Take care and I hope all works out!
 
Winterhawk56,

No laws were violated on my end. Even the ATF has confirmed that fact. An individual can send a firearm to an FFL. They just have to do it overnight via FedEx. Which I did.
 
If the ATF says the FFL is in violation for holding the gun, then make a formal complaint to the ATF. Send a copy of the complaint to the FFL.
 
I agree you did everything perfectly legal. I sold a gun a while back and researched it. As long as you can find a Fed-x to except it. A lot will not. My only recommendation. Kind of closing the barn after the cows are gone. But I found it is much safer to ship FFL to FFL. Gets you out of the middle. And once your FFL has the gun. You are no longer responsible for it. As to this sale. I would tell the Guy. You did everything legal. He found the FFL. He can work it out on his end. Or return the gun for a refund.
 
In my opinion this is what I would do. I would cash the check and then MAYBE the buyer would wake up when he has no gun and the check is cashed. In agreement with post #9. Get the ATF involved and stick it to him. Hopefully the check is still good. This situation really sucks the big one.
 
Did the ATF reccomend any course of action? Have you spoken to an attourney? If the answer to these questions is no, I'd first contact the ATF and ask them what they reccomend you do and then contact your lawyer.
 
WOW that sucks. Its scary that an FFL holder doesn't know crap about the laws that are associated with his business. It's like if you didn't know OLCC rules! What a great way to be fined or lose your license.
It sound to me if the buyer doesn’t want to get involved and is not helping you out at all. Guess he really doesn’t want the gun or his money back.
Best of luck.
 
That really sucks that this dealer doesn't know what he's doing and being an idiot. I agree with a couple other guys here and You probably hate to ...do it, but assuming you have your cash I'd tell the buyer you held up your end of the bargain and followed the law and shipped it to the FFL he designated and the rest is up to him if he wants his gun. It sounds like he wants you to do everything and handle the problem for him when in fact, it's actually his problem now.
 
Some states have laws requiring it be sent FFL to FFL. It is not a federal law.


I'd tell him to work it out with his FFL and if you get it back in the same condition you will refung the gun less shipping and I would get the ATFE involved ASAP.
 
johnwilliamson062 "Some states have laws requiring it be sent FFL to FFL. It is not a federal law"

That may be but it's not the case here.

What's up with the Jerk FFL faxing a copy of his FFL to you and not knowing you aren't an FFL holder(If that's the only way they will accept a transfer). They just don't sound very bright at all.
 
Straight from the ATFE website;

B. UNLICENSED PERSONS
(B1) To whom may an unlicensed
person transfer firearms under the
GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an
unlicensed resident of his State, if he
does not know or have reasonable
cause to believe the person is prohibited
from receiving or possessing
firearms under Federal law. A person
may loan or rent a firearm to a resident
of any State for temporary use
for lawful sporting purposes, if he
does not know or have reasonable
cause to believe the person is prohibited
from receiving or possessing
firearms under Federal law. A person
may sell or transfer a firearm to a
licensee in any State. However, a
firearm other than a curio or relic may
not be transferred interstate to a licensed
collector.
[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27
CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm
by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm
by a common or contract carrier to a
resident of his or her own State or to
a licensee in any State. A common or
contract carrier must be used to ship
a handgun. In addition, Federal law
requires that the carrier be notified
that the shipment contains a firearm
and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any
label to be placed on any package
indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3),
922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and
478.30]

However, the receiving FFL may have a store policy that requires them to receive only from another FFL holder. If this is true, then the purchaser should have notified you of this requirement and paid the extra fees (as agreed upon) charged by the sending FFL.

Looks to me like the problem is between the receiving FFL and the purchaser. You did everything by the book.
 
However, the receiving FFL may have a store policy that requires them to receive only from another FFL holder. If this is true, then the purchaser should have notified you of this requirement and paid the extra fees (as agreed upon) charged by the sending FFL.
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Store policy side, the store stated to PB that HE VIOLATED the law. Which we all know not to be true. If your thought is correct about store policy they should have NEVER sent PB a copy of their FFL without requesting one from him.
I would like to know if at all a store can make up such a thing about not receiving firearms from non-FFl's when the ATF states this is OK.

This is total fertilizer with capital letters.
 
Some states have laws requiring it be sent FFL to FFL. It is not a federal law.

I'd tell him to work it out with his FFL and if you get it back in the same condition you will refung the gun less shipping and I would get the ATFE involved ASAP.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, state law does not and cannot control interstate transfers. They can stipulate FFL-to-FFL transfers when its an intra-state transfer, but have no say on interstate transactions.

The FFL in question doesn't know what he's talking about.

--
I've traded and sold a lot of guns over the years, and have encountered a number of FFLs who don't LIKE to do accept guns from individuals. They are concerned about the question of ownership of the gun being received. (I might be the same way were I an FFL, but know that they have no LEGAL justification for refusing to accept the gun -- but can simply refuse. It is their choice.)
 
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