New Remington 870 - another failure to extract story

I have had more than one 870 with this exact same issue. I'm not sure how big or how small the problem is...but no doubt the quality of 870s is way down from about 15-20 years ago. Such a shame.

This is why I bought Benellis....I figured that I'd be in the positive after purchasing several lesser quality guns...and I was right. Benellis are not perfect, but mine have functioned flawlessly (unless I intentionally try to outshoot the gun :D).
 
Gotta say that I haven't had a single issue with my 870 Express. I bought it back in '07 or so, and it hasn't failed to extract a single round. It's eaten everything from slugs to light trap loads without a single complaint.
 
Well sure...and I'd expect that most of them are just fine. However, from a pure probability standpoint, the percentage of bad ones would have to be fairly high (10% maybe) or I am just really, really unlucky. From a statistical standpoint I'd say that I am probably not just really, really unlucky.
 
S'funny, I've handled and shot maybe 20 Expresses in the last year or so. None had these problems.

I'm probably not just really,really lucky.....
 
Allow me to quantify my response...let's suppose 90% are fine and 10% have problems.

If you choose 20 expresses (randomly), you'd have a 12.2% chance that all are fine.

If I choose 2 expresses (randomly), I'd have a 1% chance that both are defective.

That fact that you got 20 good ones is more likely than I get 2 bad ones at the current supposed defect rate...what this means is that it is not unreasonable to assume that 10% are defective...in fact, it is probably a higher percentage. (When I say defective, I don't mean that they don't work, just that they have quality control issues.)

You can't deny the math...cuz it's right...afterall, I am the mathman for a reason.
 
Our department has 6 Remington 870's. All the other local police departments that surround us also have 870's. I've never heard of any of the ones we have failing in any way. Granted, they are not shot every day, but each has thousands of rounds thru them from years on the qualification range as well as when they're shot for practice. The ones we have are pretty reliable. They are cleaned and taken care of like newborn babes! I used to read nothing but good things about the 870, but it seems that more & more threads like this and word of mouth is saying that reliability is not what it once was.

That being said, I could never figure out why more departments didn't go with Benelli, which, in my opinion, is the best shotgun for combat. Mossburg would be my 2nd choice, followed by Remington.
 
Police departments normally use the 870 Police (not the express). The 870 Police is a very fine pump shotgun indeed. Reason? Excellent quality control. The express models just aren't what they used to be...and it's a shame because the 870 is so iconic for Reminton.
 
You can't deny the math...cuz it's right...afterall, I am the mathman for a reason.
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Even if your math is correct, it does not follow that Remington's QC is down.....there are more than one reason for reported failures, one of which as I mentioned is improper storage

Police departments normally use the 870 Police (not the express). The 870 Police is a very fine pump shotgun indeed. Reason? Excellent quality control.
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Do you know what the difference is?


WildbesidesknowinghowtouseoneAlaska TM
 
That being said, I could never figure out why more departments didn't go with Benelli,
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Simply becasue Benelli pumps are not as ergo friendly as the 870.

Wildyoushouldseethe870sweseeuphereAlaska TM
 
It's not just the express models that show signs of poor QC... I bought two brand new wingmasters that did not work... Even after sent being sent back to Remington, functioning was still not 100%... After working on them my self and getting some advice from a gunsmith they now run as an 870 should... For what a wingmaster costs, they should work out of the box...
 
I am getting a headache from all the people who have no clue, but seem to think that youtube is one hundred percent believable. and that all gun makers are out to rip off the buyers.


For crying out loud, did you pull the barrel and drop a shell in the chamber, did it slide out or hang up. If it hangs up, its the chamber, if it slides right out its the extractor or the bolt.

Trouble shooting used to be something Dad's taught their son's, Now, I am not that sure.

keep breaking down the problem or issue until you find something where it works one way or it doesn't, then figure out what is causing that.

Did you take the gun down and clean and oil all the parts before you went to the range. Did you put it back together again correctly?

The internals of the 870 are pretty darned elegant. there is not a lot of extra stuff in there.
 
Yeah, I kinda wonder what has happened to us. I'm certainly no smith, but I can troubleshoot most of my arms.

Mathman, I'm no whiz at your field of expertise, but if I try 20 Expresses with a 10% dud rate, 2 of them should have glitched. None did.

Maybe I just have, after 50 years, good 870 Karma.

Or maybe I'm just really, really, lucky.

This BB needs sarcastic and skeptical smilies.....
 
Fwiw- I saw two brand new Express 870's fail. One went back to Remington and still fails. One was sold at a gunshow. They were both cleaned and properly assembled.
 
I have owned four (4) Express 12ga 870s, and all had intermittant issues extracting Winchester bulk pack field ammo, a few had issues extracting any form of Federal bulk pack field ammo, and none had issues with any brand of premium ammo or the Remington bulk pack ammo. Folk that handload or run STS/AA shotshells thru their Expresses will likely never see an issue.

I can tell you without fear of contradiction, because I have the gauge to measure it, that Winchester and Federal bulk pack/promo 12ga shotshell bases are oversized from the factory. THEY ARE OUT OF SPEC. Everyone should also note that the bulk pack and cheap field ammo are also steel-base hulls and not brass base (no matter the color of the base - the brass looking ones are simply brass plated steel). The steel bases tend to need oversized chambers whereas the (proper?) brass base hulls do not.

Could Remington make their chamber a wee bit bigger, like Mossy, to make it run the cheap crap ammo more reliably? Sure. Do I know why Remington doesn't simply address this during manufacturing? I don't have any idea, dood.. But I would wager a guess that they would state that they provide in-spec chambers...

You know what was going through my mind when all this happened?

SOMEONE COULD DIE IF THEY TRUSTED THIS GUN.

It is not a joke and we are not Remington's quality control team. You don't get to knowingly put out garbage and then get a chance to "make it right".

It is criminal negligence.
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No - what would constitute negligence is buying a defensive arm and then not shooting it enough to understand what it does/does not do. Buying a sporting arm and then claiming that 'someone could die' doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you think that the doves are gonna swarm you and peck you to death.

If you don't want to fix it yourself, just send it back to Remington and tell them to fix it.
 
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Do you know what the difference is?
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Yes, I know the difference between a Police model and an Express model. It's not just QC, there are some parts that are machined instead of MIM.

Mathman, I'm no whiz at your field of expertise, but if I try 20 Expresses with a 10% dud rate, 2 of them should have glitched. None did.
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This is a reasonable assumption...although it doesn't always work out like we expect. (I won't bore you with the details, but we are dealing with the binomial distribution.)

The fact is that it seems many folks are having some trouble with expresses.
 
The basic fact is remington has been having quality control issues for several years. A long term fault in their buisness model done by the penny pinchers. The fix's to most new remington guns are easy and are being done by the new owners. Ammo choice is some of the issue, but older 870's and most new guns will shoot this cheap ammo all day without a issue. I still have several Remingtons in the safe and that is not going to change. I have been thinking about adding a new 750 carbine 35 whelan :eek:
 
guntotin fool,

Don't know if you're talking to me or not... But these two wingmasters are the 4th and 5th 870 I've owned... I think I have a clue on how they work :D... The action would stick about halfway open after firing a round.. And was not short shucking it... The chambers were beautiful in each of these guns... It was not ammo or me, it was a number of various internal issues with the action that was causing it to stick... Yes I cleaned and oiled them before firing and I know it was put back together correctly... I am a very capable trouble shooter... After taking the guns apart, it took me a while to figure out what was going on... Being new guns, I felt that before I did anything that required me to file anything or polish parts, I better send it back... I did and what I got back still did not function 100%...
 
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Remington builds this gun to sell at a specific price point. Their selling price to the jobber, who sells to distributors, who sells to retailers, who sell to you might be half of the retail price. In order to get the cost as low as practical means taking the human labor cost out of the picture as much as possible. They need to make a profit, they need to pay their employees a decent wage, and pay those taxes associated with labor. There is 11% VAT on all sporting good in this country adding more to the price. Utilities, raw materials, and on and on. Every time they can take a human out of the equation they can lower their total cost a little. Every nice finishing step that they think is mostly cosmetic, gets cut back as well.
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All this might be true but it doesn't change the fact that the consumer has every right to an expectation that the firearm will at least function correctly, no matter the country of origin, the state of the economy or the paycheck of the worker. If the gun doesn't work then it shouldn't be peddled to unsuspecting consumers. This is especially true when you consider how long it takes for a well-established company to gain well-earned customer confidence in a well-made product and how soon it takes to squander said respect for a poorly-made product; particularly in the age of the internet where communication about your product-both good and bad-can be so readily and quickly accessed.

Note: Just to be clear, I am only making a general comment about the quality (or lack thereof) of firearm manufacturing and marketing principles. I have no direct knowledge of the alleged deficiencies of the Remington Model 870.
 
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Like I have said in other threads, I have an 870 express I bought late last year and have not had a single issue with it. Like many other things in life you never hear the positive experiences. I can imagine if everybody that has 870 exp's and had NO issues we would have to open a new server. Before I bought my 870 I read all the threads RECOMMENDING I purchase the 870 over the 500. So I have to wonder how many of the people telling me about the better quaility and overall value of the 870 are the same people bashing it now. Also, would be nice to know exactly what ammo/brand person was using when their gun failed.
 
Well, namlot1979, just because you (and probably most others) have not experienced a problem with the 870 shotgun is not to say that others haven't. I have no reason to suspect that people who report experiencing problems with their 870s are making things up. Until you have purchased a brand new gun; have cleaned and lubricated it before taking it to the range, only to find that it doesn't work properly, can you commiserate with those that have.
And, yes, you always have the option of returning the gun to the manufacturer for warranty repair and that's good. But it's not the kind of thing anyone really wants to resort to. Guns that fail to work properly out of the box will always leave a bad taste in my mouth toward the manufacturer.
 
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