New Cartridge 357 Ring Of Fire

[JohnKSa]

Below is an excerpt on the 147 gr JHP's in the 9x23.

I don't understand the point of the excerpt. It confirms the error of your earlier statement that the 9x23 and .38 Super provide performance similar to .38spl. 147grs at 1340fps is far beyond what is capable even with .38spl +P.

I have doubts about bullet kinetic energy as a reliable guide to performance...the 9mm delivering @350 ft-lbs with a 115 bullet going 9-13" and a 45 delivering the same 350 ft-lbs with a 230 grain bullet goes a bit further, doesn't it?

Your doubts are justified. Trying to boil bullet performance down to a single number, regardless of what number you choose, isn't going to be very successful except in the very simplest comparisons.

124gr FMJ 9mm and 230gr FMJ .45ACP bullets at typical velocities penetrate to nearly the same depths in ballistic gel. The difference in momentums are offset by the differences in frontal area.

If you're talking about expanding ammo, then the penetration depth is largely a consequence of the ammo design. A good ammo designer can select the desired penetration depth by controlling the expansion as long as the cartridge provides enough energy/momentum to work with. With calibers lighter than 9mm, it's difficult to achieve penetrations that meet the FBI specs because there's not enough energy/momentum to easily provide expansion and sufficient penetration at the same time.

The question of what pressure signs I am looking for while developing loads are listed in most any reloading manual...along with the precautions.

From the writings of John Linebaugh who knows a thing or two about straight-walled cartridge development.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm

“Straight cases handle pressure differently than bottle-neck cartridges and often show no excessive pressure signs. We have blown a few guns up here, on purpose, and in all instances upon recovery of the cylinder fragments and case remains, the primer has shown normal pressure. Pressures in these instances have run from 70,000 to over 100,000 psi in our estimation. Do not depend on case pressure signs for danger signs in a sixgun. In most cases the first sign of high pressure you will have, other than excessive recoil and blast, is a bulged cylinder or cracked bolt notch.”​

You really need to start doing some pressure measurements. At the very least, you should get some software that can estimate pressure to help insure that you don't blow up your handgun and possibly parts of yourself along with it.

 

[44 AMP]

I was dismayed to find he was removing brass inside the casing to make room for the bullet...a lot of work for something with a finite and probably short life cycle (brass).

I don't know why you would be dismayed. It can be a bit of work, but its the only way to get usable brass when there is no commercial source.

Remember, he was working with .223 rifle brass, cut off to fit a .38 Super length chamber. The brass of the rifle case is too thick at the point of the new case mouth, and must be reamed to allow proper fit of the bullet. It is no "extra" work to ream for a .358" bullet than it is for a .355", it just requires a bigger reamer.

The only brass removed is that needed for clearance of the bullet. No brass is removed from the case head, or sidewalls only at the case mouth. Thus the strength of the rifle case is preserved, which is the whole point of the exercise, to use the strength of rifle brass to contain the higher pressure.

The same process is used forming .44AMP cases from .308 Winchester brass.

Commercial cases, purpose made for the caliber do not require the reaming that cases formed from rifle brass do.

 

[Davelliott]

44AMP

You need to ream brass for the 44 AMP?
I recall that cartridge from the 80's? It was very intriguing! How does it compare to the 460 Rowland?
I thought that was connected to your handle...
Dave

 

[Davelliott]

JohnSKa, All

Yes, the velocity for the 147 bullet is excellent. I was referring to his statement of these bullets being best for targets. I did not cut any of the excerpt so as not to leave out anything...and to give his statement in entirety.
Yes of course the 9x23 and 38 super are superior to the 38 spl. However I was making a consideration of all calibers being shot from the same length barrels, and also considering the loss of velocity from the normal 5" barrels for the 9x23 and 38 super dropping 2-300+ fps from a 2"-3" barrel, since most carry revolvers today are 2" barrels. It was only a guess from past experience of drops to short barrels most folks carry.
This is why I test with the Glock 29. It has @2" of barrel in front of the bullet, and is closer to the model 60 barrel making it a more fair comparison.
Do they make 9x23 and 38 super in subcompacts?
Dave

 

[44 AMP]

You need to ream brass for the 44 AMP?
I recall that cartridge from the 80's? It was very intriguing! How does it compare to the 460 Rowland?

Yes, you need to ream rifle brass to obtain clearance to load a .44 cal bullet.

Compare? No comparison, really. The .44AMP case is 1.298" compared to the Rowland's .957". The .44AMP will NOT fit in a 1911 (.45acp) frame gun.

Essentially is it a rimless .44 magnum, the case is slightly longer, and gets .44Mag performance (plus a little) from a gun like this...



That's a Colt Govt Model for size comparison.

 

[JohnKSa]

However I was making a consideration of all calibers being shot from the same length barrels, and also considering the loss of velocity from the normal 5" barrels for the 9x23 and 38 super dropping 2-300+ fps from a 2"-3" barrel, since most carry revolvers today are 2" barrels.

Dave, this doesn't make any sense at all.

1. You're developing a cartridge for a semi-auto duty pistol. Why would the typical length of a compact carry revolver barrel have anything at all to do with this topic?

2. Even out of the "same length barrels" the 9x23 and 38 Super will easily outperform even .38spl +P. In fact, they should outperform it by a wide margin even if the .38spl is fired from a barrel several inches longer than the 9x23/.38 Super cartridge is tested in.

This is why I test with the Glock 29. It has @2" of barrel in front of the bullet, and is closer to the model 60 barrel making it a more fair comparison.

Why would anyone care about a comparison with a small revolver when you're trying to develop a service pistol cartridge intended for use in duty pistols which are typically full-sized? It might make sense if you were trying to duplicate .357Mag performance from compact revolvers, but the .357Mag made its reputation primarily in full-sized duty revolvers, not compact carry revolvers.

Do they make 9x23 and 38 super in subcompacts?

None that I'm aware of. But then military/LE don't typically carry duty pistols that are subcompacts.

However, all of that is not nearly as important as making sure you remain safe during your project. Did you read Linebaugh's comments about pressure signs in straight walled cartridges?

 

[Davelliott]

JohnKSa, All

Yes, I read them. Good reading.
I am using the resources I have available.
It stands to reason if I match the short revolver with a short barrel auto, it should keep pace with longer barrel revolvers, when longer semi auto barrels are used. Those tests will be coming when I have the resources...along with pressure tests.
Thanks for all the great info!
Dave

 

[Malamute]

There are load data programs for computers that can give general pressure info for cartridges. Youve been a bit coy about saying what case you are using and what youve done with it as far as length, weight, case capacity in grs of water etc.

I'm not going to discourage experimentation, as its been a good thing in cartridge and load development, but I believe you are a little bit more casual about some aspects of what you're doing than may be wise.

I'd also suggest you are putting quite a lot of stock in what I'd call internet and magazine legend about the 357 magnums effectiveness. It was pretty good when it was commonly used, but discussions I've seen by old hands that have used it and had access to pretty good sized data pools like large departments, it isnt a death ray or universally thought infallible by any means. The newest generation of bullets and loads pretty well take up any real or perceived slack in the usable cartridge lineup. The 9mm, 40 S&W and 10 mm all cover or bracket what you're trying to do. The difference is one or two rounds of magazine capacity from what I can tell.

Bonded 9mm's shoot through car doors and car windshields with enough power and expanding capability to be considered reliable in that aspect. It simply gets to the point of "how much is enough" to reliably do the job under a variety of conditions, and still have the guns be as managable as reasonably possible. That isnt just a question of wimps/girls/clueless shooters, many old hands have concluded they simply shoot some calibers and loads better, and the supposed increase in lethality or so-called stopping power doesnt translate into real life benefits over very similar guns that are just simply easier to shoot well. Most departments/agencies that take this stuff seriously have settled on both the 9 and 40, with many departments going back to the 9's because they are working very well with the new generation of loads available. This is something the ammo makers and LE researchers have been working on for quite a long time. What was accepted as fact 30 years ago, (which seems to be part of your belief base about some cartridges), even 10 years ago, isnt true today regarding cartridge and load capabilities.

Best of luck with your project. I hope you will avail yourself of a pressure test and get some workups done with the quick-load (or whatever the correct name is) and get an idea what pressures you are running. I'm guessing its a bit more than you think.

You mentioned doing the best you can with what you have. If youd let people know the components/brass/load etc, I'm sure several guys would be happy to work up some computer pressure ideas.

 

[JohnKSa]

Those tests will be coming when I have the resources...along with pressure tests.

I submit that if you don't have the resources to do pressure testing--or at least to get some software that will predict pressures then you don't have the resources to be pushing loads well past maximums. It will be cheaper to do your homework now than to run the risk of having to replace a blown gun and/or to pay a doctor to repair fingers.

Besides the obvious safety issues, if pressures turn out to be off the charts, no one will be interested in the cartridge regardless of how it performs.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

You don't even use a long string. Even I am smart enough to use a long string.

And a backstop. I shoot into a backstop of dirt piled high and deep.

Ridiculous.

 

[Davelliott]

All

Thanks Guys,
Yes, the info I have is also tempered with experience from the 80's. This was when I sold my 9, without looking back. As I have watched improvements in all fields of 9mm over the years, I have seen many flips back and forth with it, as latest improvements still resulted in good guys getting killed when the short falls of the 9's became obvious too late.
I have been searching videos of 9mm ballistic gel tests and am impressed to see some penetrate 18"+. I have also looked at 38 spl+P, 357 mag, 40 S&W and the 357 SIG...I will continue to look for tests with 38 super and 9x23. I am sure they will perform well also.
However, I have not found a semi auto cartridge with the versatility and power of the 357 magnum, and the magazine capacity of the 9mm.
Yes, 9's will pass through the thin aluminum in door panels...as long as glass, motor nor mechanism get in the way. If the thug is hiding behind the engine block, the 9's will be defeated.
The 357 Ring Of Fire can be loaded lightly with hollow points, and be less likely to over penetrate...or loaded hot with FMJ's and deny cover of vehicles and dumpsters from them...all in one pistol. Even have all of this in one magazine if wanted.
2 extra bullets doesn't sound like much to some, over 40 or 10mm, but why do we have hi cap mags anyway? I have them to get every advantage I can get if in a gun fight...lighter fast bullets for soft targets, heavy bullets for deeper penetration needs...car engines, dumpsters maybe brick walls?
I also know about the advantages of controllable rounds. Mr. Rowland adds a compensator to his conversions to help with this. I may need to do the same.
As for my own usage, arthritis will likely render me unable to use my own device in a few years. The Ring Of Fire does not recoil as much as the 357 magnum but it may become too much also in time.
I hope I have time to develop the next one...327 Ring Of Fire...
Even if I end up with only a 22, I will continue to do the best I can...wheelchair machinegun?
Some are actually asking for complete disclosure of this...really? Without a Non-Disclosure Agreement? How am I to benefit family if I just give this away? Who does that?
This is only a window open to let everyone see the cartridge being sought is once again in development, and this time someone may very well have it right. Light penetrators and heavy penetrators in one platform, with the hi cap of a 9mm. It ain't a death ray, but it'll do for now...
Preliminary tests have already shown good results with the subcompact, and will only get better when a longer barrel is tested.
Hi pressures have been a concern. I ask what pressures can be attained safely with a 9x23 using pistol primers? Doesn't this round use small rifle primers? I am still testing with magnum pistol primers, and increasing in 1/10 grain increments depending on slide cycling or not. If the slide fails to cycle due to low pressure, then I increase a percentage. This usually generates @25 fps increase each time. I'd guess the pressures may be somewhere in between those imagined by myself and others...maybe someone could tell me what spring is used in the 38 super and 9x23mm?
The 44 AMP certainly looks to be a handful! Beautiful!
Thanks Guys!
Dave

 

[mavracer]

I can't tell if you're trolling or just delusional.

The 9X23 is already at the max COAL that'll fit in a 1911 and already has the case that'll take the SAAMI spec of 55K pressure. So you aren't going to improve on it's ballistics without going over the pressure that most consider the limit for JMB's tilting barrel system.
Besides that your wanten denial of reality of external ballistics is amazing going through engine blocks with a handgun lol

 

[Sharkbite]

Sorry Brother

You are not even close to a reasonable expectation of handgun performance.

First off the vaunted 125gn 357mag load was a beast to shoot. Lots of recoil. Super bright muzzle flash and a ton of blast in confined spaces. With all that it was still not a death ray....NO handgun is

To state that the 9mm will go thru thin sheet metal but be stopped by the heavier mechanism inside a car door (true), but then insinuate that your round WILL defeat the same structures and even engine blocks, shows a COMPLETE lack of understanding on the subject.

If you are for real (and i doubt it). You need to educate yourself on the realities of handgun usage for defensive purposes AND what to realistically expect from such a package. Otherwise you are wasting your time and potentially endangering yourself and others

 

[Sharkbite]

Further

The FBI's debacle with the full power 10mm should show the LE agencies are NOT interested in heavy recoiling rounds.

LE agencies are also NOT interested in ammo that over penetrates. The FBI has established a standard of penetration in ballistic gel that is ACCEPTED across the country. Min AND max depth is spelled out. ANY ammo that is under OR over that depth is unlikely to be considered by any Agency.

As for the Military.... Forget it. They have not jumped on a cutting edge ANYTHING....EVER, in terms of small arms. Some small elite units might look at something different, but nothing you are doing cant be duplicated with tried and tested cartridges currently avail.

As for civilian defensive pistols 99.9% are going to follow what their local or State LEO's are using. Perceived (or real) liabilities about using a wildcat ctg, or just the fact that whatever the LE guys are using is tested to a level you could never achieve.

I do applaud your willingness to experiment off in the weeds with something new. But your market research is horribly flawed and your level of true understanding of the needs and WANTS for a defensive cartridge are WAY off

 

[samsmix]

Okay okay...ROFL! You got us all good. The name "Ring of Fire" should have given it away.

...but now we are attributing the ability to punch through brick walls, steel car door mechanisms, and even ENGINE BLOCKS...with a handgun!? AHHH ha ha ha! You got us good...lol...and 6 pages worth, but those last few claims really went too far. GREAT prank/troll though.
There may be a niche market though: perhaps the door gunners on the space shuttle might want to adopt it!


(For those that don't know, NO handgun, not even the 500 S&W, shoots plumb through an engine block...except the .44 mag in the "Police Academy" movies of course)

 

[Malamute]

Yes, the info I have is also tempered with experience from the 80's. This was when I sold my 9, without looking back. As I have watched improvements in all fields of 9mm over the years, I have seen many flips back and forth with it, as latest improvements still resulted in good guys getting killed when the short falls of the 9's became obvious too late.

This seems to be an important thing in your overall concept. Could you give specifics of who the good guys were, which incidents, and why a slightly incrementally more powerful load (thats not as easy to control or shoot as well) would have completely changed the outcome?

We do have some very interesting OIS where 20-some rounds of 40 HP loads didnt shut a guy down instantly, and about a dozen hits with 45 HP didnt shut another guy down until the officer made a head shot. A reliable source also described a situation in which a shotgun wielding guy that took a 45 through I believe his heart, turned, ran back up the stairs and barricaded himself in the room at the end of the hall and negotiated surrender. No handgun load gives 100% completely reliable "stopping power".

 

[Dragline45]

As I have watched improvements in all fields of 9mm over the years, I have seen many flips back and forth with it, as latest improvements still resulted in good guys getting killed when the short falls of the 9's became obvious too late.

However, I have not found a semi auto cartridge with the versatility and power of the 357 magnum, and the magazine capacity of the 9mm.
Yes, 9's will pass through the thin aluminum in door panels...as long as glass, motor nor mechanism get in the way. If the thug is hiding behind the engine block, the 9's will be defeated.

These types of ignorant statements are why many on here aren't taking you seriously. If you honestly think 9mm is getting people killed, or even better, you actually think the .357 will penetrate an engine block, exit, and hit the person on the other side, you need to do some actual hard research.

And to think that the military will adopt this as their primary round for a sidearm is just way out there. What you are developing is not a self defense round, it's a hunting round for handguns. How heavy and fast a round is moving is a small part of the equation, how well you can shoot a given round in a particular gun is far more important. And with the immense recoil of this .357 ROF round, I cant see anyone adopting it for carry or home defense use.

 

[Mike38]

An engine block will stop a .308 out of a rifle, won't it?

 

[gyvel]

Okay okay...ROFL! You got us all good. The name "Ring of Fire" should have given it away.

Surprised it took you so long.

 

[stagpanther]

An engine block will stop a .308 out of a rifle, won't it?

It really depends on many factors. For example, if the bullet has to go through several layers of accessories first before penetrating the block, that might slow the bullet down to the point where damage to the engine is only superficial. An engine that is supercharged, turbocharged, or running on NO2 might not even notice a hole in the block, even if the bullet goes all the way through. Also one has to consider that a bullet hitting a hardened camshaft, lifter or cylinder might shatter or be deflected; failing to stop the engine in time.

For these reasons, I have begun development of my own 45-70 Glock conversion which uses rifle propellants and the world's first spent uranium pistol penetrator bullet. We've all needed a reliable engine-stopping bullet for a long time--and I believe this is the answer. So far the primers are showing no pressure signs.