Need help going Progressive (handgun only)

I see several posts about lights (and at least one camera) to see what's
going on.

After about 250,000 rounds through a 550B using a variety of small reading
lamps etc to see the powder level, I bought a light setup from the
folks at Inline Fabrication. Best money I EVER spent on a reloading
accessory!!!!

http://inlinefabrication.com/
 
I didn't mean for this to become a debate on turret presses. I don't have one so I'm sure I don't know everything about them. But I understand the concept. At the end of the day, it's nothing more than a fast way to change dies. And since turret presses perform only one operation with each ram stroke, they reside much closer to a single stage than they do a progressive.
 
One thing that has been overlooked on this thread is this, as a bulls eye shooter each round I create in my sparkling clean, loaded with TLC round follows this scenario on the firing line.
Grip, breathe, concentrate, squeeze the trigger and bam, then I curse myself for being a rotten shot and being stupid for drinking a pot of coffee before going to the range ( my standard "why I'm having a bad day excuse" .
Anyway I'm always amazed at the guy's next to me shooting store bought ammo at $20/ $40 bucks a box going bam bam bam and retrieving a target that resembles a shotgun pattern.
They go through a box of 50 in 10 minutes and have nothing to show for it, hell I can't tell you how many times I've had my target hit by their rounds, I don't complain if it makes my group look better but have a hard time explaining how my .45 shrunk to a 9mm.:D
 
The powder check die ....even with a fine grain powder like TiteGroup....will alert you to a variation of as little as 0.1 grain...
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I hate to disagree with this statement as much as I love the Dillon powder check die, but it is not a system to guarantee accuracy. From the Dillon manual on page 16:

Note: The powder check system does not guarantee the accuracy of the powder charge. It is designed to warn you if the powder charge is grossly out of tolerance, i.e., no powder or a double charge.
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To be honest I think it does as good a job as my eyes do, at this age anyway!!!
 
You're right cwall....Dillon's manual does say exactly as you quoted.

But in reality - the powder check die performs better than telling you there is a significant overcharge or undercharge....and while we are discussing our experience of whether it can pick up 0.1gr variation of TiteGroup or 0.2gr or 0.3gr..../ it is still way better than your eyes can see into a case...( but test yourself...put in 0.5 gr less ...one at target ...and one 0.5gr more...of a fine grain powder like TiteGroup...and mix up the cases, like the old hide the pea under the shell game....and try to consistently pick out the low, the one right on and the high one..). Better yet, let your buddy load 5 or 6 cases...and he won't tell you how many he did high or low....and see if you can sort them out..I know I can't.

Powder Check die is not a Scale - and it sure as heck does not replace a good Scale. In my mind its an indicator, and an accurate indicator, that you may have a problem either low or high on your powder drop.

I've done the test above - and with some buddies too ....and none of us can reliably pick out cases with 0.3gr variation ...and in the load recipe I referenced yesterday, the min and max are only 0.3gr apart.

Maybe there is not perfect solution...but regardless whether you think the powder check die will alert you to 0.2gr or 0.4gr or whatever...the question is whether its better than your eyes. I proved, to my satisfaction, it is.

But in our discussion ...a press with a powder check die ( which means the press has to have 5 stations) ....gives you something that a single stage press does not ...a little more security. I know some guys use the powder check on 4 station presses...and combine the seating and final crimp into one station...but Dillon and others say that's not a great idea.
 
A story to relate why I think a powder check die is a must have..:

Buddy and I were taking a 3 day advanced handgun class..that required 3,000 rds of ammo ( 60 boxes )...and my buddy was on the fence on which loader to buy Dillon SDB, 550 or 650...so I told him to come to my home, buy the supplies - and I would teach him and mentor him thru the press and he would load up the 60 boxes he needed for the class. He loaded .45 acp ...real easy to load...

We ran about 1,000 rds no issues...

In the middle of the 2nd 1,000 rds ...powder check die started alerting us to an issue about every other round...or would beep at 2 in a row..then one was ok...and then beep at a couple more. Each time we stopped...dumped powder on scale...weighed it / and we were getting as much as 0.3gr variation...( sometimes 0.1 and 0.2gr ) we were using TiteGroup / recipe min ( 230 gr FMJ bullet ) was 4.4gr and max was 4.8gr and his chosen target drop was 4.6gr. So we were out of spec.....

We shut everything down....and I found a nut on powder measure that had come loose...and that was causing the problem. We fixed it...and went back and everything was 100% again.

My point : because we used the powder check die / and we were verifying the drops periodically with a scale ...or whenever it beeped. We knew the first 1,000 rds we did were 100% fine. ( no need to pull any bullets ! )....and we knew part of the 2nd 1,000 rds were good too....because we knew we caught all the rounds that were out of spec...and as we loaded the last 1,000 rds or so, we knew they were all on target ( or at least no worse than plus or minus 0.1 gr ( which would put us between 4.5 and 4.7 both within the limits of the recipe.

His point to me....no wonder you like the 650 with the powder check / and he ordered one that afternoon.
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I can't imagine having to pull 1,000 or more bullets...because we were afraid there might be a very low or a very high charge in some....

You can't weigh a finished cartridge ...( too much variation in empty case weights ) ..to know anything about the powder drop. Some bullets vary quite a bit as well..so weighing finished cartridges tells you nothing...( maybe if you used new brass, all one head stamp, it might tell you something...) ..but I don't think so. Some plated bullets I've seen vary as much as 4 or 5 grains in a 230gr bullet...can't tell anything from a bullet like that in a cartridge. Bullets we had were Montana Gold and most were right on - but some varied by 0.2 gr or so...so even they would not tell us anything....

You can't randomly pull 25 bullets...and with any degree of certainty ...know what the rest of them may or may not be..../ you would have to pull them all ...
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Powder check die...prevents all that worry...in my view.
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You can do some things ....like pick a bulkier powder for a load that will give you more visible variation.../ and pick a powder that has a wider variation from Min to Max for the given caliber you are loading....

and you can load good ammo on a SDB or 550, etc, without the powder check die - if you take advantage of some of those other factors in the powder you select.

The person that has bad technique loading...can circumvent any system ..so part of this is the person ( good technique, keep the bench clean, press area clean, only one powder on the bench...all that stuff matters too ! )...

But I want to know that all of the 25,000 rds a yr I shoot ...or that I load for my adult kids...or my grandkids...to shoot, is 100%, to the best of my ability, the highest quality ammo I can make ! For me - the powder check die gives me that !
 
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I didn't mean for this to become a debate on turret presses. I don't have one so I'm sure I don't know everything about them. But I understand the concept. At the end of the day, it's nothing more than a fast way to change dies. And since turret presses perform only one operation with each ram stroke, they reside much closer to a single stage than they do a progressive.
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Too late, that cat is out of the bag!:)

BUT I insist on clarifying what is the term turret press.? Since Lee had to go call their new press a "turret", it has led to problems when referring to that term. The difference is night and day from the Lee to the run-of-the-mill turrets like the Lyman, Redding, RCBS or others.

The lee, (when set up with the safety prime and disc measure), and the auto index comes darn close to progressives in speed. No powder check other than visual.

The Hornady powder check die is also visual, the little stem that comes to the top of the die indicates the presence of over or under charged cases.

With your insistence of priming off press and cleaning cases, you're under using a progressive. You would be spending money for the features of a progressive, theeen NOT using them.

The lee classic turret would be perfect for what you want to do. In full auto mode, it can load 250 to 300 rounds/hour. AND sve yo 2/3 of what a progressive would cost.
 
I understand what Snuffy is trying to say, and the auto features on the Lee are indeed worthwhile to speed things up, and the Lee can be faster than their competitive turrets if you use them. But the one thing all turrets have in common is one case on one shell holder. It still takes several strokes on each case to produce a single finished round. On a progressive, after the 5th stroke to load the shell plate, you get a finished round with each and every following stroke. You are not going to approach that with a turret IMO.

Some have raised their eyebrows at my video powder checking, because the eye still can't gauge miniscule powder level changes. Like the Dillon powder check, it's really for looking for major problems....usually a double charge or a squib. I really like it for an additional reason.....it's big...it's in my face.....so I'm not likely to ignore it.:rolleyes: That's the one plus for Dillon's vs. other powder cops.....the piezo is hard to miss and ignore, unlike the white stick that pops up on the others. I could use a Dillon instead of my video, but I would have to drill a hole in my press casting....and use up a station that I now use to crimp separately.....hmmm, Dillon 550 owners could use that extra station.

As for loose nuts in your measure....that's a given. We ought to tighten up everything on a press or p.m. at the beginning of each session. If we don't....Murphy comes to play.....and I've invited him as often as anyone.
 
You're right about loose nuts ...on things like powder measures...and doing maintenance on the press in general...( I should have caught it earlier ! )

The particular powder measure - that had the loose nut...was installed only in the .45 acp tool head....( at the point it came loose...it probably had seen 200,000 rds go thru it ...( but I check the nuts, etc on all of the powder measures, powder check dies, etc in each tool head as I switch calibers on the press now - after that happened )...and clean and lube the press between calibers too.

( I often run 2,000 rds of one caliber, box them up - so I can pull from inventory to go to the range )....and then break the press down for cleaning and lube...before I set up the next caliber..../ it only takes 30 min to clean the entire press...and the toolhead..and put it away / lube the press...and setup the toolhead and various parts for the next caliber ( change over primer system, a few minor caliber specific parts, case feeder plate, etc )...and I have toolheads for each of the 6 handgun calibers I load...with dies, powder measure and powder check dies installed..

but I admit, I changed my procedures to check the powder measure, powder check dies - and all the die lock nuts ...a little more closely ...and more often ! I also have all of the torque settings for major nuts, etc on the press now.../ and check the bolts that lock the press down to the benchtop once in a while as well....( every little screwup - is a reminder !! )...
 
I understand what Snuffy is trying to say, and the auto features on the Lee are indeed worthwhile to speed things up, and the Lee can be faster than their competitive turrets if you use them. But the one thing all turrets have in common is one case on one shell holder. It still takes several strokes on each case to produce a single finished round. On a progressive, after the 5th stroke to load the shell plate, you get a finished round with each and every following stroke. You are not going to approach that with a turret IMO.
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Exactly! But Nick is choosing to put handcuffs on to defeat the speed of a progressive.

Whether because of OCD or a belief that he would have NO/LESS confidence in loads produced on a progressive used the way it was designed.

My Dillon 650 gets handgun brass that has been tumbled with corn cob and a bit of nufinish just as it came from the range. It's dumped in the case feeder hopper, then loaded. For 9mm, I spray a small amount of midway spray case lube on the cases in the hopper. It just makes things flow better.

For rifle, like .308, .223 in the Dillon, I do case prep before they go through the loading process. That entails tumbling, sizing, trimming, then run without a size die for the powder drop and bullet seating. Powder drop is with a Hornady case activated die and an older Hornady measure. The sliding bar type Dillon measure is not precise enough for my rifle loads.
 
I didn't mean for this to become a debate on turret presses. I don't have one so I'm sure I don't know everything about them. But I understand the concept. At the end of the day, it's nothing more than a fast way to change dies. And since turret presses perform only one operation with each ram stroke, they reside much closer to a single stage than they do a progressive.
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I read this and thought...hey wait a minute..I don't have to touch the brass between handle pulls. You can try to associate the turret with a single stage in some respects, but it is definitely more efficient.
 
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Once again my interest in a progressive is being sparked now that I'm aware you can visually observe the powder charge. Is this true of all models? Which models provide the easiest to see view? Had such great luck with RCBS products over the years I'd probably like to retain my relationship with them, even though I hear such good reviews about the Dillions. It's hard to imagine that no one makes a primer cleaning attachment that would work in conjunction with lets say the flaring station. I guess that would mean primer seating would have to work with the powder dispensing station so maybe that's the draw back. Looking at the RCBS setup I'm not real crazy about the ABS priming system, gut feeling says it appears problematic, maybe I'm wrong. Are other options available on their systems?
Still in all, I think my checkbook is safe until I see a primer pocket cleaning solution evolve.
:rolleyes:
 
Brutus, the primer seating, flaring/expanding and powder drop are all done in one station on the Dillon 650 , station #2.

Point is, primer pocket cleaning is unnecessary. It's been proven time and again to have NO effect on accuracy or reliability of ammo.
 
Snuffy if you read this entire post you would find many of us disagree about the clean primer pocket issue. Doesn't matter what's been proven, we just want clean pockets.
 
If you want clean primer pockets...then you should do what you want.../ but the point of the discussion is "balistically - as well as reliability wise" it makes no difference ...

Noone is going to build a progressive press - with auto indexing especially - that will clean primer pockets ...for a step that doesn't add reliability or improve the quality of a cartridge balistically.

Not all progressive presses auto index..(Dillon 550 does not auto index )...but auto indexing reduces the chance of human error by automatically advancing the tool head..which is a good thing - to most of us.

Progressive machines are not for everybody ...but if you shoot as much as I like to do ( about 10 boxes a week / and I don't compete ...its just a hobby for me ). I want reliable, high quality and 100% safe ammo -- and I want to be able to produce it with as little time as reasonable ( and 30 min is reasonable ) for 10 boxes off of a Dillon 650 with a case feeder and a powder check die ...( but it will not clean the primer pockets after a case is resized and deprimed in station 1 ...)...and I can't find a reason why I should clean them.
 
Lots of good conversation and varying opinions. When I submitted the OP, I didn't expect much reply.

I define a turret press as one that the dies are mounted on a turret - not the cases. AND, only one die is engaged during the press stroke. That would seem to be a pretty straight forward definition. Heh, we'll see. Nothing surprises me here.

My Dillon BL 550 came late yesterday afternoon. I got it mounted on the bench atop a strongmount (nice assessory, btw). The first toolhead I set up was the 38 Special case reconditioning. I tried two configurations. The first was a universal decap, then the resize (decap pin removed), and then the flair die. This worked well, but the universal decap die tended to fling the primers so hard the catcher couldn't restrain about 1 in 5, or so. So I took it out and just used a two die system. The resize/decap die would still fling the occasional spent primer, but only about 1 in 10 or so. (On my single stage, about 1 in 20 go flying onto the floor.) I can live with 1 in 10, I guess.

I intentionally left 250 cases vibra tumbled and ready for reconditioning for the new press. Once I worked on my ergonomics and got myself into rhythm, I got them banged out in no time. After 31 years of doing it in two sequences on a single stage, it felt odd when I was finished in one. I felt like I needed to run them through one more time with the second die, but it was already done. Ready for SS pin tumbling with just one trip through the press. A different feeling for me.

Then I set up another toolhead for the loading side of things (38 Special - 148 lead DEWC, 2.9gns Bullseye.). I set up the stations as a seat, taper crimp, and then a Lee FCD with the crimp mechanism disengaged - i.e., its only purpose is to remove case O.D. anomalies that may rarely occur. Basically, I just put in the FCD because I can. I loaded 100 rounds and it went smooth, fast, and easy.

This is going to be a busy weekend for me, all my brass is prepped, and I have tons of ammo loaded. Point is, it'll be a while before I have any need (or time) to get back to it. But the 550 is all set up and ready to go. It works exactly to my expectations and will save me lots of press stokes and time. I'm happy.
 
I really do like it BigJimP. I think it was somewhere in this long string where someone said "When you think progressive, you think Dillon."

I agree.

I'm a diehard RCBS guy, but this Dillon - this very dressed down unit - is built really nice. There's nothing "cheap" about it. It feels good and solid when you use it - tight tolerances, etc. Well made.
 
For what its worth ...about 70% of the guys that I know, that reload, all use Dillon equipment...but they're split between the SDB, the 550 and the 650...but most of them, if they were to invest in a new press today would go with the 650 because of the powder check die option.

However, I also think the big name companies making reloading equipment for center fire handguns and rifles... especially Dillon, Hornaday and RCBS are all making good solid equipment....how each of the models handles priming is different...but all of them have pros and cons...and Dillon's equipment, while I have used it for over 20 yrs now, is not without some quirks as well.

Its been a good discussion ...take care / happy loading - and safe shooting.
 
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