Need help going Progressive (handgun only)
- Thread starter Nick_C_S
- Start date
I've been interested in Nick's ideas in this thread on using a progressive and the other posts they've generated. But up to now I haven't posted, having nothing to add applicable to what he wants to do. My way of reloading and his ideas don't merge often.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
But the comments above motivate me to offer an opinion from my own experience, if I may....concerning Butus's 2 progressive turn offs.
Rifle loaded on a progressive, has to be case prepped, IMO. I size and deprime my rifle brass on a 40 year old Rock Chucker, then trim, chamfer, and deburr it on a very fast motorized Forster Trimmer with a three-way cutter. Pockets are prepped using a Trim Mate and a bench swager together. So in about 3 seconds each, flash holes are deburred, pockets swaged, then uniformed. The underwear is as clean as it gets.
The progressive is used to make lightning quick work of priming, charging, and seating. Primers are seated the same depth since my Pro 2000 has a depth gauge. The trick is in uniforming pockets so that gauge works.
So how is the underwear cleaned in pistol? I realize that for a long time progressives have been used for ages to produce pistol fodder without much if any prep.
I don't subscribe to that, even if it does work perfectly fine for most IDPS and IPSEC shooters for years. Personal thing only. I like clean underwear too!
Pistol loaded on my progressive is done after case prep.
That means using the Rockchucker and a Lee Universal Deprimer and filling buckets with deprimed brass to load in my Thumbler's Tumbler along with some stainless still media, Dawn, Lemishine, and water. Four hours later my pistol brass looks like this:
I consider that state ready for my progressive. One time through sizes, primes, charges, seats, & crimps.......no I don't use a powder cop......so that brings up Butus's 2nd problem with progressives.
I take care of that with a little in your face video that is reminiscent of and as good as, looking in each case using batch processing on the Rock Chucker.
[URL=http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad195/gstrad/Press%20Movies/MVI_1619.mp4]
[/URL] Click this picture for a quick video. (the video was just a quick demo with various calibers, some clean, some not, on the same shell plate...obviously the clean ones show up the best.)
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But the comments above motivate me to offer an opinion from my own experience, if I may....concerning Butus's 2 progressive turn offs.
Rifle loaded on a progressive, has to be case prepped, IMO. I size and deprime my rifle brass on a 40 year old Rock Chucker, then trim, chamfer, and deburr it on a very fast motorized Forster Trimmer with a three-way cutter. Pockets are prepped using a Trim Mate and a bench swager together. So in about 3 seconds each, flash holes are deburred, pockets swaged, then uniformed. The underwear is as clean as it gets.
The progressive is used to make lightning quick work of priming, charging, and seating. Primers are seated the same depth since my Pro 2000 has a depth gauge. The trick is in uniforming pockets so that gauge works.
So how is the underwear cleaned in pistol? I realize that for a long time progressives have been used for ages to produce pistol fodder without much if any prep.
I don't subscribe to that, even if it does work perfectly fine for most IDPS and IPSEC shooters for years. Personal thing only. I like clean underwear too!
Pistol loaded on my progressive is done after case prep.
That means using the Rockchucker and a Lee Universal Deprimer and filling buckets with deprimed brass to load in my Thumbler's Tumbler along with some stainless still media, Dawn, Lemishine, and water. Four hours later my pistol brass looks like this:
I consider that state ready for my progressive. One time through sizes, primes, charges, seats, & crimps.......no I don't use a powder cop......so that brings up Butus's 2nd problem with progressives.
I take care of that with a little in your face video that is reminiscent of and as good as, looking in each case using batch processing on the Rock Chucker.
[URL=http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad195/gstrad/Press%20Movies/MVI_1619.mp4]
Last edited:
...except that there are no consequences but psychological. At some point in ones obsession with clean brass, perhaps a critical competition, maybe he should just use new brass. Even then, it is a matter of how much trouble one has had with misfires. The odds of that should be very small indeed. I can see a special batch held for competition but not several thousand rounds/yr, meticulously crafted without a progressive. Of course, one can do whatever he wants but perhaps should not expect affirmation from others more pragmatic in their reloading.
But when you actually try a progressive, you will realize that you can clearly see the powder before placing the bullet. Tall cases of small diameter like 327 Federal Magnum present a challenge, but being able to verify powder is in the case is just a non-issue until you try to go as fast as you and the machine can go. It is up to the operator. Once I get to a certain pace, I rely on an RCBS Powder Lockout die. Someone with many years on a single stage would likely go much slower than that and be satisfied, seems to me.
There is some context to my comments that could vary among presses. Mine is a Hornady Lnl AP with case feeder and the 4-tube Lee bullet feeder with custom adapter.
schmellba99
New member
I realize you are set in your ways, but a smart man realizes that there are other methods at doing something besides his own.
Use ArmorAll Wash-N-Wax instead of detergent when you tumble with your SSTL media. I changed over a while back - the wash-n-wax cleans just as well as detergent, but leaves a thin wax film on the brass. This does a couple of things - 1) It protects the brass from corrosion and 2) it provides lubricity that is ordinarily stripped away.
I still spray lube my brass with One Shot (pistol anyway) because I'm simply a believer in metal on metal being a bad thing without some form of lubrication. All I do after with pistol brass, and it's only some of the time, is dump the batch over a terri cloth towel, fold it up around them and rub them down for a second to get any big stuff off. I like pretty, clean and shiny ammo as much as the next guy - but in the end, it's just ammo. I'm not personally going to worry about a mirror finish on something that eventually gets put in a dirty mag, a dirty chamber and then fired.
With rifle brass, same process - but I use a shot of non CFC brake parts cleaner that removes any residual case lube.
schmellba99
New member
My primer pockets are clean - almost as clean as virgin brass I deprime with universal decapping die, then tumble in SSTL media. Hard to beat the process, for me anyway. I'm essentially loading with the equivalent of new brass every time as a result.
As far as seeing the powder charge - I can see it every bit as well as I can on my single stage using loading blocks. Honestly - all of this is with the exact same amount of time and effort that is required in a single stage. GWS has a nice setup - but it's not required by any stretch of the imagination. I am literally sitting right next to my press when I operate it (shocking, I know) and can easily see into the short pistol cases as they track along with each handle pull The only thing I've done is add an LED light kit, which was/is one of the single best upgrades I've made to my press bar none. I also use a powder cop as a double check.
No double charges or squibs on my part either.
Last edited:
I was never so worried about the ultra clean brass, but I did have concerns about the powder drop on a progressive press and missing an over or under charged round. Coming from a similar 30+ year old Rockchucker and Uniflow using multiple loading blocks (checking ever 5th or 10th load)!
First step for me in automating was purchasing a RCBS Chargemaster Duo - it really didn't speed things up any, but it is a great tool and using it for powders like 800X that I still load single stage on a RCBS turret.
But then shooting a ton of 10mm I broke down and got a Dillon XL650. I was pulling every 5th or 10th round off the shell plate and checking the drop on a beam scale for consistency (to my surprise it was pretty much on - at least on par with the Uniflow) - mind you I was also running the Dillon Powder Check die!!! Anyway, I started trusting the powder check die to give me a visual and audible check on each charged round, and I can still look in the case as I set the bullet on it before seating. It is still more nerve racking for me than working with charge blocks and the turret press, but after 5K or so rounds through the Dillon I can say that I am happy I went full progressive. Just my two cents, but I completely understand the concerns and modified process Nick wants to take.
BTW - love GWS's video feed idea! Thinking about how to do that now!!!
Code:
2. Not being able to visually observe the amount of powder thrown is, to me, a bit unnerving.But then shooting a ton of 10mm I broke down and got a Dillon XL650. I was pulling every 5th or 10th round off the shell plate and checking the drop on a beam scale for consistency (to my surprise it was pretty much on - at least on par with the Uniflow) - mind you I was also running the Dillon Powder Check die!!! Anyway, I started trusting the powder check die to give me a visual and audible check on each charged round, and I can still look in the case as I set the bullet on it before seating. It is still more nerve racking for me than working with charge blocks and the turret press, but after 5K or so rounds through the Dillon I can say that I am happy I went full progressive. Just my two cents, but I completely understand the concerns and modified process Nick wants to take.
BTW - love GWS's video feed idea! Thinking about how to do that now!!!
Last edited:
That means using the Rockchucker and a Lee Universal Deprimer and filling buckets with deprimed brass to load in my Thumbler's Tumbler along with some stainless still media, Dawn, Lemishine, and water. Four hours later my pistol brass looks like this:
I consider that state ready for my progressive. One time through sizes, primes, charges, seats, & crimps.......no I don't use a powder cop......so that brings up Butus's 2nd problem with progressives.
That result in shiny brass has me wondering which is the critical element among the tumbler, the steel pins, the additives, or the run time. If the formula is exacting, that seems quite a bit of expense for a little more shine. Every time I look at a Thumler's unit I think I don't have a problem that warrants that level of cost. I might feel differently if and when I loaded rifle brass. However, I did spring for a modestly-priced dehydrator to dry brass, so what can I say?
This is exactly what has kept me from going progressive. I was watching this thread for answers to this. Haven't seen any that satisfy me.
I also considered a turret, but looks to me like its of little help to a batch loader, or an expereinced single stage guy who can setup dies in about 15 seconds.
You just mount a flexlight to the press and problem solved. Of course, an RCBS Powder Lockout die would solve it too. The flexlight comes in handy when the turret or toolhead is full and has no station available for a lockout. I am not able to recall any real downside to using a progressive to its fullest potential. The variable may be the operator's ability to concentrate on what the machine is doing. I think that comes with practice and couldn't say how well suited mentally one might be to stay in the groove of attention span. You take breaks as needed.
Nor I.
Yep. It's still only one operation performed per press stroke. No time savings in that. I pulled a bullet the other day (long story), and re-assembled it. That was one of the rare times where a turret press would have come in handy. Like you said, they're no help when it comes to large batch loading.
Yep. Or less, in the case of dies which are already "locked down" for a specific load type - of which, I have quite a few.
And that's perfectly okay Tim & Nick. If you can't be satisfied, then stick to producing batches on a single.
As for me, I'm satisfied.....in fact smilingly when I see the quality and the safely completed rounds drop into the bin with each and every stroke. Can't go back now. I'm pushing my 6th year on my progressive of the 46 years of reloading. Can't say I've ever had a double or squib......knocking on wood.....with either system......but I'm getting older and more senile now.....I have to be ever vigilant. When I can't do that anymore, I will quit reloading.
What a progressive, with a powder check die installed, can give you that no single stage operation can is 100% guarantee that all of the ammo you are producing is right on target for powder.....and your eyes cannot do that...
Case in point - 9mm, 115gr FMJ, Hodgdon TiteGroup Min is 4.5gr and max is 4.8gr ( so 0.3gr apart is all )..../ my goal on my rounds is 4.7gr
Go back to my comments earlier in thread...and Nick acknowledged he probably could not see as much as 0.5gr variation...and I agree. So using my 9mm recipe above...if you made a drop at 4.0 will it still operate the weapon, maybe, maybe not...but its way out of the published range. What if the drop was + 0.5 up around 5.3gr ...will your gun stand that much pressure...maybe, maybe not....( but that's why we use recipes, and stay within the published min and max..) or at least I do.
-----------
and a progressive is not only going to give you 100% accurate powder drops ( not that a foolish operator can't screw it up )...its at least as high a quality round, if not better, than any single stage - and way faster.
I shoot about 10 boxes of handgun ammo a week ( 2 or 3 range trips a week with handguns) ....and a 650 press with a case feeder and powder check die easily gives me 20 boxes an hour. I like reloading - but I'd rather be shooting.
But mostly I want my powder 100% on target ...in those 10 boxes !
--------------
I've reloaded about 300,000 rds on my Dillon 650 in the last 15 yrs ( with a powder check die )...and no squibs and no overcharges.../ and I'm sure not going back to the days 45 yrs ago, when we thought the old RCBS Rock Chucker were great presses...especially on handgun ammo / mostly because I want that handgun ammo to be 100% on target for powder drops ! ( I shoot it - and so do my adult kids - and several grandkids )...
Case in point - 9mm, 115gr FMJ, Hodgdon TiteGroup Min is 4.5gr and max is 4.8gr ( so 0.3gr apart is all )..../ my goal on my rounds is 4.7gr
Go back to my comments earlier in thread...and Nick acknowledged he probably could not see as much as 0.5gr variation...and I agree. So using my 9mm recipe above...if you made a drop at 4.0 will it still operate the weapon, maybe, maybe not...but its way out of the published range. What if the drop was + 0.5 up around 5.3gr ...will your gun stand that much pressure...maybe, maybe not....( but that's why we use recipes, and stay within the published min and max..) or at least I do.
-----------
and a progressive is not only going to give you 100% accurate powder drops ( not that a foolish operator can't screw it up )...its at least as high a quality round, if not better, than any single stage - and way faster.
I shoot about 10 boxes of handgun ammo a week ( 2 or 3 range trips a week with handguns) ....and a 650 press with a case feeder and powder check die easily gives me 20 boxes an hour. I like reloading - but I'd rather be shooting.
But mostly I want my powder 100% on target ...in those 10 boxes !
--------------
I've reloaded about 300,000 rds on my Dillon 650 in the last 15 yrs ( with a powder check die )...and no squibs and no overcharges.../ and I'm sure not going back to the days 45 yrs ago, when we thought the old RCBS Rock Chucker were great presses...especially on handgun ammo / mostly because I want that handgun ammo to be 100% on target for powder drops ! ( I shoot it - and so do my adult kids - and several grandkids )...
Last edited:
I agree with you Nick on many things, but not this time. It doesn’t take near as much time to rotate the turret as it does to grab a case and orient it, then place it in the shell holder.
No powder check die made could 100% guarantee that you did not drop 4.9g in this scenario. They are simply not that accurate.
The beauty of handloading is we can establish our own procedures.
My brass handling technique.
1) Brass is brought back from the range (or place of purchase) and sorted for caliber and a preliminary inspection for obvious damage is preformed.
2) Brass is run through my Dillon XL 650 with only a universal decaping die installed. This is accomplished quickly as the cycle rate of the Dillon so equipped is about 1300 rounds per hour.
3) Brass is wet tumbled with stainless steel pins, Dawn, and citric acid for two hours. This is accomplished while my firearms are being cleaned. Brass is allowed to air dry overnight.
4) Brass is lubed if needed and sized, also on the Dillon. Then case length is checked and if needed trimmed and deburred. Also if necessary military crimp is removed.
5) Brass is tumbled in corn cob / walnut mix and Nu Finish for an hour. Then final preloading quality check is preformed.
6) Brass is then stored in Zip loc plastic bags to be loaded later. This is done to keep bugs and dirt out, because I reload in my outside shed.
This is the way I do it because I like the results. I do not care if there is a way to make shortcuts. I am not in a race.
The powder check die ....even with a fine grain powder like TiteGroup....will alert you to a variation of as little as 0.1 grain...
So in my example of published recipe of 4.5 Min -- 4.8 Max ....and my target goal of 4.7gr.....it will tell you if you get up toward 4.8gr 100% of the time - let alone to 4.9 grain.
I've been using the Dillon powder check die system for the last 15 yrs....
So in my example of published recipe of 4.5 Min -- 4.8 Max ....and my target goal of 4.7gr.....it will tell you if you get up toward 4.8gr 100% of the time - let alone to 4.9 grain.
I've been using the Dillon powder check die system for the last 15 yrs....
Dillon's version - is a "powder check die"...Hornaday and other companies have similar options..some have lock out die options.
You install the die in station 3 of a 5 station tool head on the Dillon 650. ( powder drops into the case in station 2 on the Dillon 650).
Powder check die has a threaded rod - that floats. As the tool head comes to the top of the press...the rod drops into the case and moves up or down based on the depth of powder.
There is an alarm on the die - that the rod bumps/and alerts you with a beep - if the powder is either high or low in the case. So you set the rod not to alarm when your powder drop is on target. It alerts you if the powder drop is either high or low....its a very simple design.
You install the die in station 3 of a 5 station tool head on the Dillon 650. ( powder drops into the case in station 2 on the Dillon 650).
Powder check die has a threaded rod - that floats. As the tool head comes to the top of the press...the rod drops into the case and moves up or down based on the depth of powder.
There is an alarm on the die - that the rod bumps/and alerts you with a beep - if the powder is either high or low in the case. So you set the rod not to alarm when your powder drop is on target. It alerts you if the powder drop is either high or low....its a very simple design.